"Wingin' it" 4x6-ish Trailer Thread

[nnnnnate]

Here are a few pictures from yesterdays progress. I got distracted last night watching Big Hero 6 (awesome) and didn't upload them like I said I would. It took me a few passes to realize I needed to weld different on the vertical lines on the inside/outside of the frame. I had started welding from bottom to top but the bead kept falling off. I turned down the heat and speed one setting then welded top to bottom and was able to slow down and get a thicker bead. It also took me a few lines before I realized I should be starting my weld in or at the edge of my tack then continue to the next tack rather than starting and stopping short of it.



I'm going to be chopping down the wings. I didn't know how long the tongue was going to be so I just 45'ed the ends on these pieces and stuck them on the front. When I get my axle mocked up with the wheels/tires I'll trim them and the stick out from the bumper.

So I guess I'm wondering about what I should do with the over hang from the wings at the front of the tongue. You can see them in pic #2 if you look close. What I'm thinking is that I'll add the receiver tube then cut the wings flush, then add a thick-ish plate across the open area butted up to the receiver tube.

 

[nnnnnate]

I guess one other thing I forgot to add was about figuring out the tongue length. From the receiver hitch on my Jeep to the edge of the body is 3'. To make sure I have enough clearance to jack-knife the trailer and not bust out my tail lights should I be measuring from the front of the tongue platform on the trailer or from the box?

From the box to front of the platform is about 29", should I be adding another 36" of receiver tube on the trailer for a total tongue length of about 6'. That seems pretty long to me. (If receiver tube wasn't so darn pricey I'd just buy 6' then chop it down to where I want it after welding it on the trailer.)

 

[zmotorsports]

Looks great Nate. Coming along nicely.

For tongue length, I generally measure half the width of the vehicle you will be towing it with and then add about 6-8". My tongue length for my little 6x10 utility trailer for example is 46" from the front of the deck to the center of the ball, if memory serves half my truck width was 39".

Mike.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Against my better judgement I went to church ball on Thursday and it appears I may have torn my ACL. .

Dangit Nate! I'd be happy to lend a hand on the parts you can't complete at the moment.

Those welds are tons better than my first welds. Well done.

 

[nnnnnate]

Looks great Nate. Coming along nicely.

For tongue length, I generally measure half the width of the vehicle you will be towing it with and then add about 6-8". My tongue length for my little 6x10 utility trailer for example is 46" from the front of the deck to the center of the ball, if memory serves half my truck width was 39".

Where I'm hung up is that I'm planning on adding gear in front of the box on the tongue platform so I'm not sure where I should start my measurements on the trailer for the length. I guess thats worded different from my earlier post but I'm probably going to just have to make it long and chop it down if its needed.

Dangit Nate! I'd be happy to lend a hand on the parts you can't complete at the moment.

Those welds are tons better than my first welds. Well done.

Thanks for the offer Steve. My knee actually isn't hurting a ton at the moment. It was pretty swollen Thurs-Sat but mellowed out on Sunday. I had been wearing a brace to help with stability and when I have that off used a cane to help it not buckle on me. Yesterday other than it swelling a little I wasn't in pain but its still unstable. It'll be interesting to see what the MRI shows later in the week, if it does end up being the ACL I can't imagine it is too bad of a tear based on what I've read and other people have said about their ACL experiences. I've got some other knee history that includes a broken boned chunk on my femur, two scopes, and a couple pins but I hadn't had any issues with it since 2005. It'll always be weaker from that escapade though and my be weak cartilage from the previous bone issues. I was also told I have arthritis on both knees which I was excited to hear being 31 years old.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Very informative. A little off topic, but what's the best way to decide where to place the axle?

 

[BlueWolfFab]

I like a 70/30 rule on weight distribution of axle placement. (70% of your weight ahead of the axle, 30% behind). Tongue length plays a small factor but still play the 70/30. I wouldn't go less than 60/40. If you are creating a rectangle deck trailer like this, I'd place the axle about 2/3rds of the way back from the front of the deck, and place the load accordingly.

 

[sixstringsteve]

How about for steering and backing up? I assume the axle farther back would make it behave different than if the axle were at the front. Does the 2/3 back thing work best for tracking too?

 

[BlueWolfFab]

The longer the distance your axle is from your hitch, the further out of track it will be when turning while driving forwards. (keep a short tongue length if you want it to track closer to your tow vehicle)

Backing up- most people find a longer trailer (distance from hitch to axle) is easier to back up than shorter trailers, but it just takes less steering wheel movement to get the same effect on a short trailer. Weight distribution does nothing for tracking and backing up. Weight distribution is just to prevent trailer sway at freeway speeds.

Something else is if you have a long tail (distance from axle to rear of trailer) it will swing out in the opposite direction of your turn. This is usually negligible though on small trailers and really only a problem on semi trailers and big camp trailers in tight maneuvers.

 

[jeeper]

I prefer 60/40 when I build trailers. 2/3's seems to make the trailer handle slightly odd IMO. I know it's a minimal difference, and probably can't be identified by most people.. but I can, and I don't like it.

Our camper also has a significant tail swing at the back, and has to be watched when in tight spaces.

 

[I Lean]

I put my axle 2/3 back on the "cargo box" part....but it's tiny, so I probably could have put it anywhere and yielded the same result.

 

[Corban_White]

For most bumper pull utility trailers I have found a good rule of thumb is take the length of the box in feet and put the axle (or the center of the grouping if using multiple axles) that many inches behind the centerline of the box. (Don't include the tongue in any of these measurements). For a custom application (aka you will always have the same cargo loaded the same) adjust the axle to give you a tongue weight of 10-15% of the total weight.

 

[boogie_4wheel]

For what it's worth, I like a heavier tongue on a short trailer, I think it makes them more stable at speed.

Here is a picture of the trailer I've completed to haul my street bike. Super small/short/light. Pull it behind the Escape, so weight is kind of an issue. The downside to this is I can't see it when empty and it is hard to backup with (impossible when empty).

This picture is when I was determining where to place the axle. Bike weight is ~800lbs, I figured trailer to be in the 200 range. I welded the axle so that I had a 180lb tongue with this bike on it, making it ~18%. My dirt bike is shorter so it makes the tongue heavier vs total trailer weight. Empty, this little guy tracks dead straight, even after bouncing across an expansion joint or pothole. If I had to do it over, I would make it a little longer, the tongue is too close to the deck and it interferes during a tight turn; but with my initial goal it worked out great, and I would have needed to buy another stick of 1.5x3 (I built this with only 8" of remnant). I must confess that I haven't built a ramp for it yet (which will reduce the tongue weight), and I will be adding a spare tire to the front to help offset the ramp weight.

 

[bryson]

To answer your question regarding tongue length, it depends on what your plans are with the space in front of the box. If you are going to load that with cooler/fuel cans/water cans/dead body storage, you'd need to make sure the tongue is long enough to jack knife without hitting those.

Basically, you have to figure out what's going to be on the front and go from there. Until you have that, it's just a crap-shoot.

 

[zmotorsports]

Very informative. A little off topic, but what's the best way to decide where to place the axle?

As others have already mentioned the 70/30 and 60/40 rules have been around for a while and both have their merit.

Personally I take the deck length, divide in half and add an inch per foot of trailer length behind the centerline.

Example is 10' long trailer, mid-point is 60" and then add 1" for every foot so 10" totaling 70". NOW take into consideration if you are going to be having a huge ramp hanging on the rear or a loaded tongue box on the tongue. These must be taken into consideration as weight is what you are really shooting for, approx. 12-15% total weight on the tongue for a very good handling trailer.

Another thing to take into consideration is whether or not the trailer will be used for the same thing or more "universal". This will also have a deciding affect on axle placement because you know how it will be loaded each time you pull it vs. a general purpose trailer where you never know what or how it will he loaded.

On my 6x10 general purpose utility trailer I went 68" because I was not using a large ramp on the back, small aluminum one(s) underneathe rather, and I was going to carry a full-size spare tire on the tongue.

Bottom line is there is no one answer for every trailer or builder. I do prefer to have just a bit more tongue weight rather than not enough as at least one with a bit more tongue weight will tow and handle properly. Too little tongue weight and they become unstable and "darty". Sorry, I don't think that is a technical term. Hope that helps.

Mike.

 

[zmotorsports]

For what it's worth, I like a heavier tongue on a short trailer, I think it makes them more stable at speed.

Here is a picture of the trailer I've completed to haul my street bike. Super small/short/light. Pull it behind the Escape, so weight is kind of an issue. The downside to this is I can't see it when empty and it is hard to backup with (impossible when empty).

This picture is when I was determining where to place the axle. Bike weight is ~800lbs, I figured trailer to be in the 200 range. I welded the axle so that I had a 180lb tongue with this bike on it, making it ~18%. My dirt bike is shorter so it makes the tongue heavier vs total trailer weight. Empty, this little guy tracks dead straight, even after bouncing across an expansion joint or pothole. If I had to do it over, I would make it a little longer, the tongue is too close to the deck and it interferes during a tight turn; but with my initial goal it worked out great, and I would have needed to buy another stick of 1.5x3 (I built this with only 8" of remnant). I must confess that I haven't built a ramp for it yet (which will reduce the tongue weight), and I will be adding a spare tire to the front to help offset the ramp weight.

View attachment 97065

That looks like a nice trailer. I would love to see a few finished pics of it.

Mike.

 

[nnnnnate]

To answer your question regarding tongue length, it depends on what your plans are with the space in front of the box. If you are going to load that with cooler/fuel cans/water cans/dead body storage, you'd need to make sure the tongue is long enough to jack knife without hitting those.

Basically, you have to figure out what's going to be on the front and go from there. Until you have that, it's just a crap-shoot.

Right now the plan is water and fuel storage and probably a little box for random stuff like straps and wheel chocks. Liquid storage is the priority though for the tongue deck.

Thanks for starting the conversation on axle placement Steve, I picked mine up on the way home from work and was happy to see there was plenty of info already here for that.

After clamping the receiver tube to the front I'm starting to worry that I've got too long of a trailer. With 3'7" of tube extending from the front of the tongue deck my overall length is just over 12'. (half the width of the JK is 3' then add the 7" wiggle room per Mikes recommendation.) I'm at 147" total length and for perspective Adventure Trailers make 124" and 141" trailers. I guess the longer you make it the more likely you are to jam the receiver into the dirt going down and up inclines. I really don't know how much that will affect my use of it but I'm concerned about it.

EDIT: There won't be room for a box on the tongue if I store my liquid the way I want. I can get 6 scepter cans on there though.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Have you seen Manly trailers? I'll be borrowing a few ideas from their design.

http://manleyorv.com/trailers/morv-explore.html#

 

[CobraNutt]

Nate, you're welcome to come take a look at my JJ tent trailer. It's 10' overall, weighs in at about 800lbs with a tongue weight of about 85lbs. It's a trick learning to back a short trailer, but once you get the hang of it, you can put it just about anywhere. I'm also looking at fuel/water storage options on the tongue with a small gadget box if there's room. The tongue area on mine is pretty small, so keep that in mind when your planning what you want to put up there. I wish I had just a little more room!

Sent from my mystical handheld gizmo.

 

[nnnnnate]

Have you seen Manly trailers? I'll be borrowing a few ideas from their design.

http://manleyorv.com/trailers/morv-explore.html#

Yeah I had looked at these last year pretty early on in my trailer looking, these and the ruger trailers out of denver. I seems like the price has gone up a fair amount in the last year, when I first saw them they started at $3,500, the Rugers started at $3k.

After picking up my axle and receiver tube last night I went out in the garage and started to feel a bit overwhelmed. Its not so bad that I'm going to rage quit but I need to take some time to think about how to go from here. I really need to get these in the right places for the trailer to be decent but I need to figure out a bunch of stuff and make some decisions before I can do that. This is stuff that you guys have already given good feedback on, I just need to decide whats going to work out best for me and how I want it so I don't end up needed to re-do a bunch of stuff later on. I'll share it so guys that are going to jump into one of these builds can see what I'm stumbling around on.

Stuff I need to decide on in no particular order:

1- Receiver tube and frame tube are both 2.5" square. Do I notch out the frame rails to slide the receiver tube through them for mounting or do I just weld the receiver to the bottom and add some bracing.

2- For the tongue length, where do I start the measurements to get the clearance I need. From the front of the box or the front of the tongue deck or from the front edge of where I plan to mount the liquid storage.

3- What the best way to square up the tongue to the rest of the trailer is. On the front of the trailer I don't have really any where to measure from that is uniform. I don't feel like I can rely on the joints because the welds are different thicknesses and that would throw off the numbers. I measured to the halfway point on the farthest forward full cross member and go that dialed in but the issue is where to measure from for the tip of the tongue. I may need to just tack it and then measure after I get the spring perches set because those will be a hard and flat mounting point.

4- Where do I mount the axle. 60/40, 70/30 ect... Do I start the measurements from the front of the box or from the front of the tongue deck.

5- SOA or SUA. I initially planned on SOA but after doing some crude measurements yesterday I think that it might be a fair bit taller than my JK. I've only got 2.5" lift on the Jeep so its not super tall and I'll be running the same wheels/tires so that shouldn't be a factor. How I mount the receiver tube will affect this though, whether I mount it under the frame vs in the frame rails.

6- I need to order spacers. Spidertrax show the 1.75" spacers are out of stock and backordered so I'll need to call around to see if any of the other places have them. The other option is to bore out the wheels to provide clearance for the hub but I when I ordered the axle I factored the spacers into the width that I ordered. I can't really mock anything up with the axle until I have these so I'm going to try and get this sorted out pronto.

After I had all this garbage flying around in my head last night and wanted to do something productive I decided to grind some welds. I'm happy enough with how they look but need a flat surface for the box to mount to. I'm going to leave the welds in place on the bottom of the trailer. Props to Josh (Unstuck) for his great recommendation on the flap disks. I ordered a box from his guy on ebay a few weeks ago and have been super happy with them. I was using a grinding wheel before and was making huge divots on everything trying to clean the metal up. Its all smooth and shiny now and was super quick for weld prep and cleanup.