Gear / Accessories Yankum recovery ring

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
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Looks up the price of a ring... no wonder I don't have a winch :D

It's entirely possible to equip yourself with a good vetted pulley block(s), soft shackles and winch extension strap or rope without breaking the bank. The need for two pulley blocks (or recovery rings) isn't super common for most and if you travel in a group, you could easily ensure collectively you have everything you need.

Join the Utah Off Road Recovery Team and you'll get a chance to use that gear and dive into 4:1+ rigging regularly. Many of the vehicles we recover are rollovers down steep canyons (think Bountiful B) so the Spanish Burton gets busted out from time to time.

An example, my little BJ74 Land Cruiser tugged this rollback wrecker up a pretty steep hill (hard to tell from the pic) using a 4:1 Spanish Burton setup. More than the mechanical advantage was the ability to spread the pull load out to several trees. So even with a potential 5,000 lb load which would just pull me down the hill at him, I was only seeing 1250 lbs, trees at my side or behind saw the other 3750 lbs. The Dodge tried to pull him with a strap to no avail. We used that strap to anchor me as I was still getting pulled downhill even under just ~1250lbs.

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johngottfredson

Threat Level Midnight
Location
Alpine
So apparently there is some big drama between Casey/Yankum and Matt’s offroad recovery (Florida). I was unaware if this when I posted this thread. I just want to be clear that I am not pushing Casey or his channel, I am not a subscriber to his channel or Yankum, or Florida Matt. I’m not interested in someone else’s dick-measuring contest on the internet.
why do you love Casey so much and push his channel around here? This disclaimer doesn’t feel genuine. You love him.
 

UNSTUCK

But stuck more often.
The winch never realizes more load in 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, etc rigging versus that of the max of a single-line pull. In fact it could (and should) see much less. A 3/8” bolt has a pretty impressive shear strength fwiw. Multiply that by 4 and they are not a common failure point.

View attachment 167778
I wasn’t taking so much about the bolt as I was the winch housing, and maybe even the square nut holding that bolt. I know the bolts can be plenty strong. I assume the housing is too, but this is something that may be different between manufacturers. And who knows what Chinese company is making the square nut.

I’m not a physics nerd by any means, but my Jeep trying to winch another Jeep that’s hanging off a cliff will still see the full weight of that Jeep no matter how many line parts I’m running, unless some of those parts are tied to some other anchor away from my Jeep. So my winch motor may think it’s pulling a 2000 pound load my winch frame/bumper/Jeep frame still feels the 8000 pound weight of the Jeep hanging off the cliff.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
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Sandy, Ut
I wasn’t taking so much about the bolt as I was the winch housing, and maybe even the square nut holding that bolt. I know the bolts can be plenty strong. I assume the housing is too, but this is something that may be different between manufacturers. And who knows what Chinese company is making the square nut.

The winch will only ever pull up to it's max capacity and certainly those four bolts and mounting provisions are up to that task across the range of winch manufactures as evidenced by the lack of failures. I've seen some with broken feet but I think they had more to do with shipping/install error or bolts that were loose/wrong.

I’m not a physics nerd by any means, but my Jeep trying to winch another Jeep that’s hanging off a cliff will still see the full weight of that Jeep no matter how many line parts I’m running, unless some of those parts are tied to some other anchor away from my Jeep. So my winch motor may think it’s pulling a 2000 pound load my winch frame/bumper/Jeep frame still feels the 8000 pound weight of the Jeep hanging off the cliff.

Correct, which is why I'm a proponent of using a DLP, SB or other to move that load off of a single stuck or recovery vehicle. See my notes on this above. This obviously works great in areas with additional anchors or where one has the ability to task additional vehicles. Self-recovery in the desert or mudflats get's hard and at times multiple Pull-Pals would be the only true answer. Or call a snowcat.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
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I know I've mentioned this before on RME but a consideration worth mentioning again for those setting up new winches and/or converting their wire rope to synthetic rope. Cut your new line down in length. Now, I know this sounds off-putting but let me explain. This can be a win-win. Say you have a winch or new winch rope that is 100'. Consider cutting it to a 60' and 40'.

Why? Winches only pull at their max rated capacity on layer #1, that is the closest layer to the drum i.e. nearly all of the rope off of the drum. Each subsequent layer reduces your max available pull by ~15% (depends greatly winch on model). Winch manufactures don't hide this, they just don't put it on the front of the box. That means you really need to work out your recovery plan to get as much as possible off of the drum. If the bulk of your winching scenarios include a vehicle nearby, this can be harder than it sounds if the terrain doesn't allow a 'distanced recovery'. You can use a pulley, and that is generally never the wrong answer as you increase your mechanical advantage AND get rope off of the drum. But consider a shorter line too. That piece you cut off? That makes a perfect winch extension. Add two clean loops (I prefer the McDonald Brummel) and that 40' piece becomes a perfect ~37' extension. You could use it with a your existing rope in a cow-hitch assembly or use it with a shackle to make one lone SLP. Better yet, add a good pulley block and you have the perfect setup for a 4:1. You could use it in 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, etc scenarios and a 40' is about the perfect length extension, carrying two is even better :D

Performance specs of an example winch (on layer one), look at the amperage pull at those upper line pulls, 435 amps is no joke on any vehicles electrical system, particularly if there is any duration to the pull.
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Source: Warn

Correlate that to the capacity by layer. By having 3 or 4 layers on the drum, you've turned that 8000lb winch into a 5000lb winch and if it's seeing a true 5000lb on layer 4, you're still pulling 400+ amps, that's a ton of work/load.

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(Source: Warn)
 
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mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Full frontal nerdery is my specialty. I've actually spent a fair bit of time teaching/testing on this stuff to recreational, corporate, industrial and military clientele. Wait until you see me with a dry erase board and the math behind recovery resistances :D

View attachment 167790



I'm interested in the full frontal but hope it's not clothing optional like "full frontal" usually implies?
 

UNSTUCK

But stuck more often.
The winch will only ever pull up to its max capacity and certainly those four bolts and mounting provisions are up to that task across the range of winch manufactures as evidenced by the lack of failures. I've seen some with broken feet but I think they had more to do with shipping/install error or bolts that were loose/wrong.
Thanks for all your input on this topic. I like the idea of using less line on the winch drum and using the rest as an extension as needed.

Can you tell us how many wraps of line need to stay on the drum to be safe? I always thought the entire drum needs to stay covered in wraps. If so, are the specs you listed for “first layer of drum” actually the second layer of the drum? It wouldn't make sense to advertise full strength on a layer you can’t even use.
 

Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
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Stinkwater
Thanks for all your input on this topic. I like the idea of using less line on the winch drum and using the rest as an extension as needed.

Can you tell us how many wraps of line need to stay on the drum to be safe? I always thought the entire drum needs to stay covered in wraps. If so, are the specs you listed for “first layer of drum” actually the second layer of the drum? It wouldn't make sense to advertise full strength on a layer you can’t even use.
Now you done it, you just stuck quarters in Kurt and he's probably typing a manifesto on the subject right now. And it's probably gonna be full of great info.

But while he's doing that, yeah you need to leave several wraps around the drum. The friction from those wraps around the drum is an important part of how the drum retains the line, cuz that little bolt at the end sure can't do it by itself. I've heard varying numbers, but never less than five. I think the instruction manual on my Engo says leave six wraps, for example. But wraps are not layers of wraps... when they tell you a winches' pulling power, they're giving it to assuming you're at the drum, in the first layer. The more rope you have on the drum, the more layers of wraps you have, the bigger your effective cylinder is, reducing your pulling power just like a taller tire reduces your effective torque with a particular diff gear ratio in your axles. Kurt's chart upthread kinda lays out exactly how much pulling power you're losing from how many layers of wraps you've got left on the drum.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
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Sandy, Ut
Thanks for all your input on this topic. I like the idea of using less line on the winch drum and using the rest as an extension as needed.

Can you tell us how many wraps of line need to stay on the drum to be safe? I always thought the entire drum needs to stay covered in wraps. If so, are the specs you listed for “first layer of drum” actually the second layer of the drum? It wouldn't make sense to advertise full strength on a layer you can’t even use.

You can absolutely use layer #1, you just don't have full use of the entire traverse, in most case just ~50% or so before it's on layer #2. So can you quickly shorten your line to stay at or near layer #1 if needed? There are tools for that too.

7-11 is the magic number I use/teach AND it's easy to remember imo

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7 wraps on the drum for wire rope and 11 wraps on the drum for synthetic. That totally jives when you think about it, the wire rope has a much higher 'bite' with the drum than that of synthetic ropes with such a low coefficient of friction (but not zero). If you've ever had a winch line all the way off of a drum, you'll note the end hardware and method won't take much load at all, often a crimped on terminal and a small 1/4" or similar button head or capscrew. It's there only to keep things on the drum, it's that line's friction around the drum on the 7-11 wraps that does the work.

Now, that number will vary. Warn (and ComeUp too) say 5 for wire rope and 10 for synthetic for example.

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Meanwhile Superwinch and rope manufacture Samson (Amsteel Blue) say 8 wraps for synthetic, etc. You get the point, the number will vary. I basically surveyed all credible data points I could find and use the most conservative (high # of wraps) of them all, that is the 7-11. The extra one or two wraps offered by some recommendations is just inches, hence why I prefer the more conservative and easy to remember number across all winches and lines.

As for my preferred method to attach, I like the Safe-Xtract option shown below. I like this method because event if all things go pear-shaped and you pull all the line off your drum, it doesn't rip the rope out of a terminal or bust the hardware, rather it still holds you or perhaps hold whatever item you have hanging from it. You're in a pinch to sort how you're going to start pulling that load again but at least it doesn't fall off.

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You could combine this with a Gator-Jaw or similar to keep it from ever pulling off more than 11 wraps (exclusive to synthetic). Some duct tape those 11 wraps, some mark them with a special color so you know if you're at/near that layer, etc. SX puts a 100″ red drum warning color section at the end of the Winch Line that alerts you when you are approaching max reach of your Winch Line, I really dig that option as it's so visual and easy to see from a distance. No single answer, just find something that works for you.

Continuing with the nerdery. If you're building your own winch rope (I'm making my own these days) or just curious how much an old winch should comfortably carry, here is a handy chart to solve for that. You could also dig up the manufacturer specs for your winch and see what it originally was equipped with... and then shorten it to make an extension :D

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mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
....

Continuing with the nerdery. If you're building your own winch rope (I'm making my own these days) or just curious how much an old winch should comfortably carry, here is a handy chart to solve for that. You could also dig up the manufacturer specs for your winch and see what it originally was equipped with... and then shorten it to make an extension :D

View attachment 167795



I hear bacon sizzling and rope making some Saturday. I can't assume you're available until May of 2025 though?


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Please forgive my crude drawings but couldn't help but notice. Does this reduce the "cred" from the hardcore Toyota folk?
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
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I'm much cooler with that :D

I don't judge. As my good friend Miranda Lambert likes to say, it takes all kinds of kinds. :D

I hear bacon sizzling and rope making some Saturday. I can't assume you're available until May of 2025 though?

Actually, we (Wasatch Cruisers) are spooling up another tech night at my shop where we build ropes. Full disclosure, I don't think it's much cheaper if any at all to buy bulk US made rope and then make your own ropes. @Paul R purchased a few thousand feet for our group at a wholesale deal he was able to source. Perhaps he can do another group buy.

@Hickey, let me know if you want this thread back on subject. I've fully hijacked at this point.
 

Hickey

Burn-barrel enthusiast
Supporting Member
I don't judge. As my good friend Miranda Lambert likes to say, it takes all kinds of kinds. :D



Actually, we (Wasatch Cruisers) are spooling up another tech night at my shop where we build ropes. Full disclosure, I don't think it's much cheaper if any at all to buy bulk US made rope and then make your own ropes. @Paul R purchased a few thousand feet for our group at a wholesale deal he was able to source. Perhaps he can do another group buy.

@Hickey, let me know if you want this thread back on subject. I've fully hijacked at this point.
I don’t really care. The info is still recovery related.
 
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