Build Thread: Sixstringsteve's 2002 Tacoma double cab: Carlos

[sixstringsteve]

What's the biggest hurdle? The wiring harness/ecu?

I didn't buy this truck for trails like the Rubicon, so I'll live with my auto. It's the better solution for 99% of the driving I do. Even if i swapped to a 5-speed, I'd miss the auto for daily driving and car-camping trips.

 

[mesha]

One thing I'll say about this rig: although it was capable enough to do the Rubicon, it beats a truck up like this to take it through. We didn't have any issues, and nothing on the truck broke, but it was a rough trip.

I know most people will disagree with me, but if I were to rock crawl this much, I'd swap it over to a 5-speed. I can't stand crawling with an auto. If I'd had a 5-speed with duals on the Rubicon, it would have been much smoother and easier the rig. Autos are convenient for 99% of driving, but I'll take a manual any day for rock crawling.

Why Manual? What are you comparing it too? If you are comparing how much easier your old truck with duals and a solid axle did crawling versus this truck. I don't think it is the manual vs. auto that is making the difference.

I do agree that sometimes the manual is nice, just wondering what your train of thought is here.

 

[sixstringsteve]

I'm comparing it to my ifs truck I took through the Rubicon last year with duals. Aside from wheelbase and the auto, it's the exact same truck as last year (same wheels, tires, suspension, etc). The shorter wheelbase was a little bit nicer on the really tight turns, but the main issues was the fact that I was in an auto this year.

The trail was 100% doable with an auto, just rougher than i would have liked. I prefer wheeling without having to touch the brake on boulder fields or descents. The duals with a 5-speed keep the tires going the same speed whether I'm going uphill, downhill, in the middle of a boulder field, or climbing a 4' wall. I'd just feather the gas as needed based on the obstacle.

With an auto in a taco, the Rubicon goes like this: Give it gas. Lots of noise, but not enough gas to make it up the rock. So gas it more 'till it gets the wheels up on the rock, then shift to neutral and get on the brakes before you bounce over the rock and all your weight transfers to the front of the vehicle. Then shift back into drive for the rears to do the same. Repeat 5000 times.

We learned that keeping an auto in drive in 4lo makes it really hard to slowly come down off rocks. The tranny is low enough that it'll just plow on ahead, even standing on the brakes, but not low enough to hold you back. While it sounds like it'd be just as good as a 5-speed, it's not. The tranny isn't low enough to hold you back, and it's not low enough to crawl up walls without throttle input.

I think a 4:1 behind an auto would be better than what I have, but I'd still be wishing for a 5-speed.

 

[mesha]

That old truck had a manual and duals and this truck has an auto and no duals?

What was bugging you? I am honestly not trying to argue. I value your opinion and am wondering if there is something I haven't noticed with the auto before.

 

[Box Rocket]

I hear what you're saying with the auto vs manual, but I think I still prefer the auto in my truck. Crawler gears in the t-case would improve a lot of the problems you describe. For me i've found that if it's technical crawling I don't even bother putting it into drive, but just leave it in 1st gear Lo. I've never felt like I needed to throw it back and forth between neutral and forward gears. However I definitely do a lot more left foot braking when crawling. Driving with both feet I've been able to keep it fairly smooth.

In the back of my head I keep thinking there's a reason that a large percentage of comp rigs that are crawling 99% of the time are using autos.

 

[sixstringsteve]

That old truck had a manual and duals and this truck has an auto and no duals?

Correct. When i say I'd rather have a 5-speed, I mean I'd rather have a 5-speed with duals. I'm not convinced that duals with an auto would make me happy, but who knows, maybe it would. With the research I've done, it sounds like duals behind an auto still aren't quite enough to have it tractor along or hold itself back enough. I hear you want dual-ultimates behind an auto. Even then, it won't be the same as disengaging a clutch and having it chug along no matter what.

That being said, I don't plan on wheeling trails like the Rubicon again, so it doesn't matter much to me with this rig. If I were to build a purpose-built rock crawler again, it'd have a 5-speed and duals, no doubt.

What was bugging you? I am honestly not trying to argue. I value your opinion and am wondering if there is something I haven't noticed with the auto before.

It's tough to explain. I grew up wheeling samis and toyotas that had almost zero power. To fix this, we ran really low t-case gears (4.7's, and duals).

Jeeps don't seem to need duals and super low gearing, since they have the torque to crawl up stuff at 60:1 without dying. Toyotas just bounce up stuff with a 5-speed and stock 2.24:1 gearing, it's really rough. Once you've tasted the crack of crawling along with the clutch out, and letting the gearing do its thing, it changes everything. It's not everyone's style, and not everyone will like it, but I sure do. I got used to having super low gears and just letting the clutch out in 1-3rd and letting the motor do its thing at idle. It was a ton smoother and the transition between climbing and descending is soooo smooth. Perhaps it made me a lazy wheeler, or less skilled, but the way it just motors through stuff is addictive.

My single cab tacoma finally had enough torque to crawl with the stock ratio. But it still wasn't quite as smooth as I'd like. So I put duals in it and it was the same old story: super smooth transitions, and less slamming when my weight transfered from front to back. That's what I'm not getting with this truck. I don't like standing on the brake pedal and sliding down rocks with the brakes locked. I like the engine doing all the work.

 

[sixstringsteve]

In the back of my head I keep thinking there's a reason that a large percentage of comp rigs that are crawling 99% of the time are using autos.

Probably. I guess I've just adapted my style to cater more to the 5-speed. I can't drive at the level of comp rigs anyway, so it probably doesn't apply to me.

That being said, in Moab, most trails are fine with the auto. The Rubicon, however, is totally different. You're constantly transfering weight forward and back, and we tried leaving it in 4-lo 1st, and it was definitely smoother shifting it into neutral on the descents.

 

[mesha]

I can see what you are saying now.

My old YJ had duals with a 4 to 1 in the front case. Over all I was at 208 to 1 crawl ratio. It was nice to have the gearing do a lot of the work for me. I guess I wasn't understanding what you meant by smoother, but now I do.

 

[sixstringsteve]

I also think that if I had 37-40" tires, and a super capable suspension like a sas, it'd be a different story, since the suspension and tires could absorb a lot of the weight transfers. My truck last year was definitely smoother through the rubicon, and I attribute it to the gearing.

I will say, in Moab, the auto is quite nice. I like not having to dance with the clutch pedal when I stop on a steep incline. The auto transitions power nice and smooth. The Rubicon, however, took a lot more effort and focus and energy to keep it smooth, and it took me a minute to realize why I was struggling so much.

 

[Kevin B.]

I'm with Steve. My last truck had the auto with stock gearing, I've got a 5 speed with a 4.7 case in this one. It was nice to be able to roll up on an obstacle and just ease into the throttle until I popped a wheel up, but then you had to be right on the brakes so you didn't overshoot, and you had to ride them on the descent too. Like he says, very lurchy. Now that I've "tasted the crack" as Steve puts it , I don't think even an auto with duals or a 4.7 case would do it for me. Not in a truck I planned on crawling, and I prefer a manual for daily driving anyway.

 

[Marsh99]

What's the biggest hurdle? The wiring harness/ecu?

Easiest way I have found would be to swap ecu's, wiring harness, and gauge cluster from same year of tacoma.

 

[sixstringsteve]

I guess if I were building a taco for serious crawling, it'd be an extended cab anyway, and those fortunately came with a 5-speed.

 

[Box Rocket]

Probably. I guess I've just adapted my style to cater more to the 5-speed. I can't drive at the level of comp rigs anyway, so it probably doesn't apply to me.

That being said, in Moab, most trails are fine with the auto. The Rubicon, however, is totally different. You're constantly transfering weight forward and back, and we tried leaving it in 4-lo 1st, and it was definitely smoother shifting it into neutral on the descents.

I've run the Rubicon numerous times and can definitely see the benefit of low gears. I've had both setups with my FJ40 running an SM420 manual trans with a 7:1 first gear, early 3-sp cruiser t-case and 4.88s. It hada total crawl ratio of ~82:1 and for most of the Rubicon I could just leave it in gear and steer without touching the pedals. Also my '93 SAS truck with dual ultimate Marlin gears and 4.88's was about 223:1 which was stupid slow. I guess all I'm saying is I understand exactly what your saying and I agree that a manual with crawler gears of some kind is a great setup. I have found that an auto can be just as effective but driving technique definitely has to change. I drive my Tacoma completely different than I did my FJ40 or my '93 pickup but I feel like I can control it equally well but it has taken time to learn how to drive it.

 

[sixstringsteve]

I prefer manuals for stuff like this (fast forward to 1:40 and ignore the guys talking):

[video=youtube;nkpuSbTj8c0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkpuSbTj8c0[/video]


This guy has an auto. He's smooth and does a great job of it, and it works. I just think it'd be smoother if he'd had a stupid low gear and a 5-speed. The engine would be holding the truck back as he dropped down stuff, and the weight transfer would be a bit smoother.

It's all good, I just thought I'd post my opinions about the truck after that trip. I'm not saying an auto is totally out of the question, it's just not my preferred setup for that type of trail and obstacle.

 

[sixstringsteve]

I have found that an auto can be just as effective but driving technique definitely has to change. I drive my Tacoma completely different than I did my FJ40 or my '93 pickup but I feel like I can control it equally well but it has taken time to learn how to drive it.

I need to take some driving lessons from you.

I can still drive the truck in the same places I could with my 5-speed, it's just tougher on the truck, with a bit less finesse. I'm not slamming into stuff, but i'm nowhere near as smooth in my auto.

 

[Rot Box]

Steering rack

It's starting to leak, so I think I'm just going to replace it with a new one from the factory. 225k miles, and 35's with wheel spacers...

Steve, consider adding poly bushing to the new steering rack. I installed Super-Pro poly bushings to my 100 series and couldn't believe how much tighter the steering felt. Something to think about..

 

[sixstringsteve]

Good call Andrew. It currently has poly bushings, but they squeak like crazy due to no grease. I plan on installing new ones when it goes in, and greasing them like crazy.

 

[sixstringsteve]

one other note: the other 2 guys I wheeled the Rubicon with this year also had double cabs with autos. The auto didn't seem to bother them at all, so take that for what it's worth.

The auto isn't a deal-breaker at all, it's just not my personal preference for trails like that. Seeing that I don't plan on many more trails like that, the auto is the better solution for my needs.

 

[AddictedOffroad]

Steve, all of the "smoothness" you seek from the A/T is rectified with the crawl box. My 2000 4runner was the smoothest trail rig I have ever had. Compression braking was perfect as was the crawl ratio IMO. Remember that the torque converter effectively doubles the crawl ratio. So, a properly geared rig with an A/T and dual cases is perfect for what you are asking of it.

IMO, my old 4runner was perfect in low range and made me move away from a 5spd for the hard, technical stuff for good. Plus you can two foot drive it instead of trying to manage the three pedals constantly in the nasty climbs/decents.

I ran 5.29s, dual 2.28 cases, and the A/T. It put me around 75:1 crawl ratio, but the torque converter doubles that, so it puts you around 150:1.

Not only that, but autos drastically reduce the shock load on the drivetrain as the torque converter allows for slip.

The new DC I am building will be a little lower in ratio since I am keeping the stock tcase in the rear. So, I will be at 88:1 or 176:1 with the TC.

Trust me on this. Its one of the biggest reasons I plan to run an A340 in the buggy I am building.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Great input Scotty, I really respect your experience and opinions. With that setup (duals and an auto), will you be able to approach a wall/obstacle and let it just idle up it, or will you still have to feather the gas to get it to start crawling?