Can of worms: School Vouchers

[cruiseroutfit]

My mom's got them, if they didn't get tossed in their move. I'll ask.

I'm holding you to that!

I did, full ride to RISD, some SUNY schools, and partial to Syracuse.

Good lord, with that much school and your brains you ought to be a doctor. Your new name is Dr. Tacoma. Doesn't sound like school failed you, sounds like you failed to do something with it all... you obviously gained something from you public education, they don't give scholarships out otherwise.

Those dumb friends graduated in the same program as I did, once they caught up. THIS WAS 16 YEARS AGO, as well. Things certainly could have changed since then.

I never said dumb kids couldn't learn... I just said you can't compare states based on said dumb kids Things changing in sixteen years... ya think?

The whole home-school thing is a moot point, these vouchers have nothing to do with them. But I reserve my judgement on socially inept children as result of overzealous and sometimes paranoid parents.

 

[teknodestrukto]

yes vote here

Anything that reduces a socialized system for a private one's benefit has my vote...Competition will improve both systems. If schools keep promoting a politically correct agenda over facts, they will continue to lose students. Like mine, for example.

 

[Tacoma]

Doesn't sound like school failed you, sounds like you failed to do something with it all... you obviously gained something from you public education, they don't give scholarships out otherwise.

I wouldn't necessarily say so. I wanted to be a painter, and there isn't really much that school will do to effect that reality, as it turns out. You either do it, or you don't... *shrug* And it doesn't pay that well for a lot of us

 

[bobdog]

Well FYI yes I took challenging classes in all years of my high school career. Junior High really didn't offer anything. Won't get into what school I went to but if you knew what school you would know learning doesn't go in within those hallowed walls.

Sophmore year. Honors courses, physics, english. Honors courses was the same material as the regular classes I found out later. They had more essays in english and a lot more semantic talk of moving on to English AP which I took my senior year. Physics was my only PHD teacher a genius in my view point. Reading his doctorate was a privilege and inspiration. I always took remedial math courses I only took two in high school because I used some physics classes taught by this teacher for math credit. I enjoyed the more applied mathmatics I always tested well. But learning five different ways to do a math problem really never interested me EVER. So yes I take the blame my father is an engineer and if any of you knew psychologically speaking differences in human minds. Mine never really grappeled calculus. I was just a terrible tester I would ace the homework because it took my five hours to do. But when it came to test an hour and half just I could never finish. No excuses just merely saying what happened. My American History AP test well my teacher was actually the cheer instructor as well. Much to my shock she felt like following her own lesson plan. By skipping the Revolution and Civil war to come back to it later. Well on the AP exam I had two essays involving the civil war. Maybe I didn't do as well as I would hope because I didn't agree with her lesson plan? Who knows I don't care I studied really hard and barely passed with three. Although in the same year I passed the Biology AP test with a 4 I didn't study nearly as much as I should have. Blah blah blah. My sophmore year I had Euro ap and Art history passed 4 and a 5 respecfully. So don't tell me about not challenging myself. Both my parents worked as well so as far as support all I had was the weekend math studies with my dad. But I divulge just because you may have all had a wonderful experience in public schools doesn't mean I disagree with you I am happy you did but for my sake I worked my butt off and I wished I had just taken easy classes graduated early and went to SLCC for my senior year like a couple of my friends did. They are now in a masters programs at the U. So getting out of public schools will always be a priority for my kids.

This was not written by a honors English student. Your punctuation and sentence structure is lacking.

 

[waynehartwig]

This was not written by a honors English student. Your punctuation and sentence structure is lacking.

Not to mention hard to read/follow

 

[bobdog]

If people want to send their children to private schools, I think that is great. If they want everyone else to help them pay for it, it pisses me off.

 

[Milner]

But I reserve my judgement on socially inept children as result of overzealous and sometimes paranoid parents.

Don't even get me going on that one....I do have to agree with you there Kurt....I quit a job over that arguement with a former boss that home skool'd his kids!

Drugs are there private or public (even home)....Trust me, I know every ones dirty little secrets!! Depending on where we end up living, public is not out of the question, but there are some schools in the valley I wouldn't board a dog at, and some districts I would avoid all together....Kurt/Cody you guys are closer to high school by many years, then I am, but I do still deal with them daily and I just don't feel good about a lot of them....I have seen changes I don't like in the last 3-5 years....
When it comes down to it, schools like Skyline are not that different from Judge.....the majority of the students are from similar socio-economic status. (same could say the same for Brighton and Juan Diago). And Highland was just the same back in my day....

I like the accountability factory in private schools....on both the kids and the staff. Most private schools REQUIRE x number of hours a week from the parents. Teachers and parents communicate more, there is less chance of a student falling through the cracks....

In the end education and what you get out of school still falls back on the parents. If you are not actively involved in your childs education no one else will be either!!!!

BTW I graduated with a 3.5 and attended less then a third of my senior year.... A little bit of effort and an honest face gets you a long ways

(AGAIN this is ONLY my PERSONAL opinion, and in no way reflects that of my employeer)

PS Personal gripe that is sure to piss someone off....Way does someone with 6 kids pay LESS towards educating them then I do for one???? We both pay the "same" taxes, but the person with 6 kids uses more of the resources. In fact they get a tax break for having more kids....

 

[scoutabout]

Is there an emoticon of a guy shooting himself in the head?

I just lost precious time in my life reading this thread.

I thought it was a thread about school voucher programs.

I saw an interesting presentation on the voucher program at Rotary Club (it's not just for old ladies).

In the short term, the school will win. For each student opting into the voucher program (leaving public school), the school will get between 4K and 5K per year. But only for the first 4 years (or 5 years or somesuch). Then they would be back to their regular budget. In the longterm, rich people who want to subsidize private school tuition will win.

Would schools lose diversity as affluent families opted for private schools?

Would you end up with the poorest kids "stuck" in the public system that is now having it's funding diverted into other programs?

VOTE NO! It's the first time I've ever found myself in agreement with the Teacher's Union.

100% of your state income tax goes to the Utah public education program.

On public vs private education...

Either could be fine, but I would lean towards a well funded, well organized, performance based public school education. Although, I have no idea about the education system in Utah. In Texas it is was awesome (where I lived anyway).

 

[StrobeNGH]

KSL did a story on vouchers last week. They looked at the claims of both sides and compared their claims with the actual bill.

Their result was that the Parents for Choice had overstated/exaggerated their claims, whereas Parents for Public Education's claims were false.

So, yes the bill will be taking money away from public schools, but AFTER giving more money to them.
Without the voucher bill, the extra 5 million would NOT go to the public schools.

The voucher program is putting more money into the school system, but when you have a budget of over 3 billion, a 5 million infusion isn't that big of a deal.
Honestly, this is more of a philosophical debate than anything.
The voucher bill won't effect schools that much, if at all . . .

I'm for it because I still believe that taxpayers have the right to direct where their tax dollars go. I know it's very un-PC of me today, but I still believe that taxes are MY money, not the governments . . .

Thus, I favor the right of other taxpayers to direct a portion of their (and my) tax dollars to go into the voucher program . . . even if it means a "tax break" for the wealthy.
No reason to punish someone just because they make more money than I do.

 

[StrobeNGH]

Would you end up with the poorest kids "stuck" in the public system that is now having it's funding diverted into other programs?

VOTE NO! It's the first time I've ever found myself in agreement with the Teacher's Union.

100% of your state income tax goes to the Utah public education program.

On public vs private education...

Either could be fine, but I would lean towards a well funded, well organized, performance based public school education. Although, I have no idea about the education system in Utah. In Texas it is was awesome (where I lived anyway).

This is assuming that our public schools suck. I've seen schools which were truly awful. Trust me, even the worst school in Utah is a great school when all things are considered.
We have great public schools. Even with the voucher program, I doubt I'd pull my kids out of them.

 

[projektdotnet]

I will be voting FOR Vouchers. Remember that not all parents are going to take their kids out of public schools. I would bet that not very many will even with the Vouchers. What will happen is that those who stay put the money back into the public schools anyway. Also the parents will gain extra leverage over what happens in public schools because they will be able to say, "improve or out $2k voucher goes elsewhere."

My mother-in-law is a former 3rd grade teacher from California and also supports these views. She's actually why I'm pro-voucher.

 

[Cody]

competition is good, but competition isn't where one group subsidizes their competition because the rich want another break.

 

[Milner]

My understanding is that if your income is over a certain amount, you do not qualify for vouchers....Can any one confirm this? What is the amount?

 

[RockMonkey]

My understanding is that if your income is over a certain amount, you do not qualify for vouchers....Can any one confirm this? What is the amount?

That's only if you don't meet any of the other three qualifiers. Basically, everyone who has a child born after September 1, 2001 qualifies for the voucher, regardless of income. So all those kids born this millenium who would have gone to private school regardless of the voucher, will be taking $3000 each out of the public school budget. This is not a good plan.

 

[waynehartwig]

I agree/understand the oppostion on both sides. But what I don't understand, is if the child is pulled from public and put in private school, why is the $3k going to be missed (from the public fund)? Are you saying that child is making a profit for the public school? Child is gone and the school still recieves $4k a year to basically hold her spot. I don't understand what the big deal is? I'm sure it costs more than $3k a year to school a child (apparently $7k). I say let them go and take the $4k free monies left over. Sounds like a win-win...

 

[RockMonkey]

I agree/understand the oppostion on both sides. But what I don't understand, is if the child is pulled from public and put in private school, why is the $3k going to be missed (from the public fund)? Are you saying that child is making a profit for the public school? Child is gone and the school still recieves $4k a year to basically hold her spot. I don't understand what the big deal is? I'm sure it costs more than $3k a year to school a child (apparently $7k). I say let them go and take the $4k free monies left over. Sounds like a win-win...

Because the child is not pulled from the public school. The child was never going to be in public school. The child was always going to go to private school regardless of the vouchers. Right now with no vouchers you have a child in private school and all $7K is going to the public school. Now with vouchers the same child is still in private school (so the class size at the public school stays the same) but $3k is removed from the public school budget. The same number of pupils with less money equals less money per pupil, and that's bad!

The vouchers will convince a small number of people who would have had their children in public otherwise to move them to private school. This number is insignificant compared to the number children who would be in private school regardless of whether there are vouchers or not. All those kids who are headed for private school anyway ALSO GET VOUCHERS. This bill will reduce public school funding significantly while not significantly reducing class size. If you think public school failed you, by voting for this bill your are helping to guarantee that it will fail the millions of kids that will be going through the public school system in the future.

 

[RockMonkey]

If we really truly believe that the public school system is a failure (I don't, I went to public school and learned a ton), and think that we should reduce it's already bare-bones funding, then we should just eliminate the public school system entirely and get rid of the state income tax. Then we can let more private schools close the gaps and compete for tuition dollars. I would support that before I would support reducing funding for an already crippled system that educates the vast majority of Utah's children.

 

[Paul R]

competition is good, but competition isn't where one group subsidizes their competition because the rich want another break.

I think they need to find a more effective way to gain more competition in private/public schools. But, I don't think that the way the vouchers are set up will promote that. There are not going to be enough students leaving to create an even market. Thus it is just another tax break for the rich if not immediately, in 13 years when all students will be eligible, as has already been stated.

There are good arguments on both sides, and I originally supported ref. 1. But after a debate/ conversation I saw the thing that stuck in my head was about the reason it should be passed. Which is to help cut back enrollment in public schools because they are being over crowded. I think this is a total cop-out. If the problem is the public schools are overloaded, it says a lot about where our focus is if we as a people vote to encourage students to not enroll rather than to fight for funding and build more schools designed to better educate students. That is what won me over.

For me this issue isn't about whether private or public is better, because there are many aspects to determine what is better for each individual child. There are many private schools that might be better than many public schools. And there are cases where the opposite may be true as well. The real issue to me is that we need to focus on the majority and how we can provide an effective and challenging school environment for every Utah student and to me vouchers don't even come close to a long term solution to a problem that is only going to get worse. There will probably always be a difference in the schools around the valley (i.e. Skyline vs. Granite ...) but the focus needs to be on narrowing the gap in a way that every school continues to excel and become better. And I realize that most of this is just idealistic, but the main point is vouchers to IMO don't serve their purpose.

 

[waynehartwig]

It seems to me that the voucher system is a bandaid and not the real reason public schools are failing.

I don't know, I dont' have kids in school and we aren't discussing this system here, so I don't konw all of it's specifics. But I do the public school system is broken and dysfunctional, and it starts at the top, not at the teacher level. And it sounds like the voucher system will further expose the defunct system.

Personally I think it should stay the way it is. Public school is right, not a priviledge. The money should stay in the public school to maintain that right. But to me, this is a comletely different argument. And like others have said, if they are able to get a $3k voucher for taking their kids out, why can't I get one for not even having any kids in?? Where is the fairness there????

My house in Elk Grove, CA I have to pay Mello Roo's to the school system in my area and I don't even live in the house! Tenants don't have kids, so.... Not only do my taxes go to the school district, but they also added on (like an HOA) to give additional monies to the school district. None of which benifit me in the slightest.

 

[waynehartwig]

If we really truly believe that the public school system is a failure (I don't, I went to public school and learned a ton), and think that we should reduce it's already bare-bones funding, then we should just eliminate the public school system entirely and get rid of the state income tax. Then we can let more private schools close the gaps and compete for tuition dollars. I would support that before I would support reducing funding for an already crippled system that educates the vast majority of Utah's children.

I do, but it's not at the school level - it's 'upper management' that needs to be fixed/fired. I agree, the schools did the best they could with me

When I lived in PG, about 70% of my property taxes went to the school district. So with that ~$700 and what ever my income tax was (really no idea), that's a lot of money to put into a school system that doesn't even house my children. So there you go, if they are goign to give out vouchers, give the family a credit on their income and property taxes - that would be the actual fair way to do it and that would only net roughly $1500-2000.