Unimog
Eric
- Location
- Stansbury Park, UT
Not at all! I am a bit surprised by the divide, but I understand the differing opinions.
Coronavirus
- Thread starter Kevin B.
- Start date
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
I think it's called extortion.
Unimog
Eric
- Location
- Stansbury Park, UT
Yea, unfortunate that everyone on one side or the other is lumped together. I am a proponent of being vaccinated, but that doesn't mean I am in the same camp as many who hold that opinion.
Interesting take on Delta's approach and might be true, although 75% of their employees were vaccinated before this action ever took place. That and the fact that most of their competition are simply mandating vaccination for all employees.
Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
Comparing something like a car accident to Covid is very far fetched...and honestly ridiculous. The factors, likelihood of even being hospitalized and ways to avoid it are completely different. You can't control Covid like you can a car.
No Offense, those that are likely not getting the vaccine are also those that likely don't wear masks in public. They are not exactly the "most careful" about this virus. Now if you wanted to compare getting hospitalized while being unvaxed to say doing not wearing a seatbelt doing 200mph through stop &go traffic....then you may have a better (still far fetched) comparison. The point being that you can't control the factors with how you get Covid anywhere close to the way you can control the factors with driving a vehicle.....especially one off-road. Sure shit can still happen...but I bet most of you wear seat belts and keep your limbs inside the vehicle when doing any major obstacles.
There are reasons you wear a seatbelt driving/wheeling, etc...because it's not about the car you are controlling, more so to protect you from the other drivers and the factors you have no control of.
Also, as I stated the virus is highly contagious and we are seeing hospitalizations at levels just like the winter peak...so it's quite a different comparison from a car accident to a virus that spreads through the air
Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
I'm not sure what the statistics and mortality rates have to do with any of my discussion since I specifically said this isn't about mortality.I'll take that challenge!
According to the Association for Safe Road Travel, the mortality rate per 100,000 is 12.4 in registered vehicles and 15.78 out of 100k licensed drivers.
And Covid mortality rate, per 100,000, according to John's Hopkins, CDC, et al., is 1.7.
Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.coronavirus.jhu.edu
FARS Encyclopedia
The FARS Encyclopedia provides statistics on injuries and deaths from vehicle accidents that occurred within the 50 States, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico.www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov
For fun, here are some more "honestly ridiculous" mortality-rate comparisons:
FastStats
FastStats is an official application from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and puts access to topic-specific statistics at your fingertips.www.cdc.gov
If we were seeing car accident hospitalizations and deaths at the frequency of Covid maybe you have something.
With 300k+ MORE deaths in 2020 and hospitals with near capacity ICU's and beds....there is obviously something to the virus. Now there is a "safety feature" that can help with it and many and refusing to do that. Those people should pay somehow if they lose the poker hand.
Cars with less safety features and higher values have to pay higher insurance premiums. Why shouldn't this be much different? It's a choice that appears to greatly increase the risk and therfore the cost to insurance. That is also why I think it should be more along the lines of hospitalization vs. Insurance premiums. Also let the freemarket come in and even offer an AFLAC type insurance just for Covid hospitalization for being unvax'd.... Don't want to get the shot. That's totally fine....just know the ramifications for it
Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
@UT410 Your absolute risk resuction is much lower then what I have seen...I have no way of knowing which is even correct because it really depends on too many factors and both could be correct.
The big problem is that many people here keep throwing out a single statistic, as if that, all by itself means everything.....but they don't. Statistics can be skewed via perspective or by what/how you want things to look...i've made the comparison to UT and public education spending. Sure we spend less per pupil than almost any other state. That is 1 statistic....but when you take in the other factors you realize that we have more kids then most every other state and so our spending in relation to our budget is pretty much in line with moat states....but they don't show that statistic.
Here is a good article I've read that breaks down the statistics a bit better. It is more written to explain what I am saying vs. Trying to sway someone to get vaccinated.
www.wired.com
So again, it isn't about a single statistic or the likelihood you will die from this disease. It's about the very real fact that this disease spreads easily between people and that due to this and the high(ish) % of severe sickness can/is overwhelming our healthcare system. We have a way to help, that has been proven...but many don't/won't take it....so my honest opinion is that they should bear some of the responsibility for it.
Sure exercise and being all those things you mention may help in reducing the risk...but those things take A LONG time to accomplish and people don't have the time to get to that healthiness level...if they did have the time because the virus was slow moving, then by all means go that route.
The big problem is that many people here keep throwing out a single statistic, as if that, all by itself means everything.....but they don't. Statistics can be skewed via perspective or by what/how you want things to look...i've made the comparison to UT and public education spending. Sure we spend less per pupil than almost any other state. That is 1 statistic....but when you take in the other factors you realize that we have more kids then most every other state and so our spending in relation to our budget is pretty much in line with moat states....but they don't show that statistic.
Here is a good article I've read that breaks down the statistics a bit better. It is more written to explain what I am saying vs. Trying to sway someone to get vaccinated.
The Statistical Secrets of Covid-19 Vaccines
They’re really very good, and they’re the only way out of the pandemic. But a tour through the numbers could bring the vaccine-hesitant into the tent.
So again, it isn't about a single statistic or the likelihood you will die from this disease. It's about the very real fact that this disease spreads easily between people and that due to this and the high(ish) % of severe sickness can/is overwhelming our healthcare system. We have a way to help, that has been proven...but many don't/won't take it....so my honest opinion is that they should bear some of the responsibility for it.
Sure exercise and being all those things you mention may help in reducing the risk...but those things take A LONG time to accomplish and people don't have the time to get to that healthiness level...if they did have the time because the virus was slow moving, then by all means go that route.
Houndoc
Registered User
- Location
- Grantsville
Clarifying a message is never a bad idea! I don't understand why many people think that once medicine or science say a statement they must hold to it forever. And as I have said before, natural occurring herd immunity doesn't work for a serious disease (I know, a few will jump in and try again to contradict that claim. I won't re-engage.)
I am not sure what those who are anti-COVID vaccine can be considered other than anti-vaccine.
Statistic can be manipulated to make almost any point and potentially very misused. To use that reasoning to say the vaccine is not useful is similar to saying seatbelts, helmets, roll cages, smoke detectors etc. are worthless because the only save some of the people of the small number who are affected by such events.
glockman
I hate Jeep trucks
- Location
- Pleasant Grove
My comment was that it's preventable. There is zero necessity for people to wheel. So if we start justifying limiting people's freedom to prevent injury based on how necessary the activity is its a slippery slope.
I had covid, it didn't put me in the hospital. I didn't take up a hospital bed. I missed 3 days of work. No one footed any bill because of my illness. Why should I risk even a 0.00005% chance of getting a serious side effect when the risk of covid to me personally is zero. The data is pretty conclusive that vaccinated people are spreading covid so the whole "doing it for others" argument is null and void.
glockman
I hate Jeep trucks
- Location
- Pleasant Grove
I'm also against requiring people to wear a seat belt, not smoke or wear a helmet. It's your life, you have the right to risk or end it as you see fit.
Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
So you are telling me that by cutting sugar for 2 weeks and losing 10lbs in a month, which is not modest calorie deficit (unless you are already pretty substantially overweight) will somehow give me the same IMMEDIATE, reduced risk of getting extremely sick from Covid? WOW, you must know all kinds of things about it.
Dr. Ron Brown pushes the ARR over the RRR very heavily in his discussions. Claiming that it needs to be broadcast (which I agree with)...BUT, it has to be used in conjunction with the RRR. You, once again focus on 1 figure with no context. Let's take a look at seat belts. If you have a 10% chance of getting in a car accident when you go out at any given chance, and you get severely injured 10% of the time, your base line is .01% chance of being severely injured in a car accident at any given time you go out. Now, if you still have the same 10% chance of being in an accident, yet you wear your seat belt, and it shows you have now a 2% chance of being severely injured in those accidents. Your new chance of being injured is .002% chance....so your ARR is only .008%......yet your RRR is 80%. (numbers are rough) I'm simply pointing out that using only the ARR as a determining factor does NOTHING without reference. You may not be at a high risk in general....but reducing the risk that even the low risk has is not a bad thing. Plus, this is also ignoring the fact that (depending on studies) being vaccinated you are probably less likely to pass the virus on to others....so while not only protecting yourself, you are protecting other people (maybe not as greatly as originally proposed, but even new studies suggest you protect others)
No offense, but you come across multiple times in this thread and others (and have been called out on it before) as holier than thou. You preach that health is somehow the end all/be all of this thing. You come across as some holistic healer type that looks down on others that don't follow your logic. You are arguing that losing weight, being healthy, cutting sugars are going to be just as good as a vaccine. Maybe you are right in the long run, but guess what, most people aren't the way you seem to want to think, and you looking down your nose at them doesn't change that. You also say you understand that hospitals are overwhelmed, yet say we put too much faith it it. However, you ignore the very fact that with the hospital being overwhelmed, if you need it for anything other then Covid, you may not be able to get the help that YOU likely put faith in them for. You exude an "I'm enlightened, you're not" attitude with many of your posts. To point out how, phrases like "now go read some real articles" Somehow, the articles you read are better than others....Your information is better, more real, more "pure", more enlightened then others. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm simply pointing out how I (and apparently others) feel you can come across. I hold no ill will against you or your point of view...but your verbage comes across that way and I've felt this way many times when it isn't even directed at me.
I am not contradicting myself...but you can think how you want. I am simply stating that those who chose not to get the "jab", (which, let me inform you are not all these healthy individuals that you like to present as somehow the ultimate answer to all of this), they should have to cover their "risk taking" somehow. You can disagree with me all you want, however, throwing statistics that are static, when the ever evolving virus and pandemic are not doesn't do much for your point (which I honestly don't 'even know what your point is anymore)
Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
I agree with you on all of this.
I also believe, that by taking those risks, you should be paying for those risks somehow. Your life, your choice.....but also your price to pay.
glockman
I hate Jeep trucks
- Location
- Pleasant Grove
I think we do by paying into a group health insurance plan. I ride motorcycles but I'm not obese. If you look at it on a large scale, we all make bad choices and are all lumped in to average out the good and bad.
Plus the administration of risk charge would be unbelievable. Can you imaging if your car or health insurance didn't pay claims if you didn't wear your seatbelt? What if you wear your seatbelt 99.9% of the time, but you forgot to buckle it as you left a parking lot and were T boned. That is not the type of society I want to live in.
EDIT: Do you feel like people who qualify as obese should have to pay for their medical treatment? 88% of people hospitalized for covid are obese. I see people say that unvaxed should pay but I don't see people calling on overweight people to pay. They both seem like personal choices to me.
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Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
Not exactly. Having insurance doesn't directly equate to your own personal health risk. You ride motorcycles but are not obese. I'm not obese, don't ride motorcycles, don't smoke, don't drink often, don't drink soda, etc.....but our rates in the group health insurance are the same.
Really, there should be surcharges to relative risk factors, or conversely, discounts based on various risk factors. There are many ways to skin this cat. Motorcycle insurance should include higher injury coverage (therefore you are covering yourself a little bit more) This would be similar to sin tax....except that goes to the .gov. If you had to buy a rider to your insurance policy for smoking, motorcycle riding, drinking, etc....that would be a better way to handle these "risky" behaviors that people chose to partake in.
I get it's not realistic. Just thinking out loud.
glockman
I hate Jeep trucks
- Location
- Pleasant Grove
I get what you're saying. I think that rabbit hole is deep. What is your genetic predisposition to certain diseases, is that a fair thing to inquire about? I see it ending in genetic testing and a class of untouchables.
My point is, I'd rather pay a little more than have an insurance company get to dig into my personal life and choices. I already have enough big brothers.
That's an insurance companies wet dream.
They already know your driving habits and how fast you travel if you have certain apps installed (like google maps). How do you think all that traffic data is aggregated? Google (and many others) sell the data tied to your identity to Lexis-Nexis and to which they then sell to the insurance agencies.
I'm not even kidding. I've seen some of the data at my job through sample DHR requests.
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Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
Agreed. I don't consider genetic things the same, since you have no control over those.
Choices that we make however you do have control over...and if your choice is to be more risky, I feel that you should have to be responsible for those choices that put you at a great risk of injury or illness.
Agreed 100%. Responsibility is everything.
But from my view point, taking the jab is the bigger risk. Especially down the road. I don't believe my life should depend on a subscription service of jabs to be alive. I've researched and weighed the options and it's a no-brainer for me. It's likely a lot of us will never agree on this and that's just how it's going to be.
Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
@UT410 Sure.
I won't reply with a novel. You came back with statistics that relate to something unrelated to what I said. I started these recent entries by agreeing with Delta Airlines policy that I feel those that chose not to get the jab should have pay extra, somehow. I moved past the insurance premium and feel that maybe insurance should no longer cover hospitalization from Covid if you chose to be unvax'd. After that, comparisons were brought out about seat belts, and other unrelated things. The random individual statistics were thrown in was not by me.
The only line I am going to directly reply to is the one about reducing risk. You are all about reducing risk....but your general path is going to likely be a long road for many people. I don't disagree with it, however, it's more of a fantasy world view. Living healthy and being healthy do reduce the risk, but for most of America, it will be a long road to get healthy enough to reduce the risk. So, in the meantime, there is an alternative to help more immediately.....and again, if you chose not to take it (which I agree 100% it is your choice) There should be some sort of responsibility placed on you for that choice.
I write "novels" because I try to actually try to explain myself and my thinking. I apologize if it's a lot to respond to.
At this point, the horse is nothing more then a soupy mess. We don't agree on many things, agree on many things. We differ mostly on approach to problem resolution....it is what it is.
I won't reply with a novel. You came back with statistics that relate to something unrelated to what I said. I started these recent entries by agreeing with Delta Airlines policy that I feel those that chose not to get the jab should have pay extra, somehow. I moved past the insurance premium and feel that maybe insurance should no longer cover hospitalization from Covid if you chose to be unvax'd. After that, comparisons were brought out about seat belts, and other unrelated things. The random individual statistics were thrown in was not by me.
The only line I am going to directly reply to is the one about reducing risk. You are all about reducing risk....but your general path is going to likely be a long road for many people. I don't disagree with it, however, it's more of a fantasy world view. Living healthy and being healthy do reduce the risk, but for most of America, it will be a long road to get healthy enough to reduce the risk. So, in the meantime, there is an alternative to help more immediately.....and again, if you chose not to take it (which I agree 100% it is your choice) There should be some sort of responsibility placed on you for that choice.
I write "novels" because I try to actually try to explain myself and my thinking. I apologize if it's a lot to respond to.
At this point, the horse is nothing more then a soupy mess. We don't agree on many things, agree on many things. We differ mostly on approach to problem resolution....it is what it is.
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UNSTUCK
But stuck more often.
This just took "two weeks to flatten the curve(s)" to a whole new level.
