D60 swap in a Rubicon

[waynehartwig]

Both will be 35 spline inners/30 spline outers. 35 spline outers slide right in, just need to swap hubs or drive flanges.

The price you got it for is decent...I wouldn't call it a screaming deal, but definitely a fair price for it, especially including shipping or whatever. I've seen them sell for over $1500 in stock form.

I thought to change out the outers it took more than just a drive flange and stub. I thought it was a lot more involved. Because of this thought, I was going to swap knuckle out with GM stuff... Not only for the added king pin strength, but because of the difficulty in the swap. From what I understand GM/Dodge is as simple as you say, but Ford isn't.

 

[timpanogos]

Is there steering issues on the trail with a front/rear Detroit? I wouldn't think so, because they do still freewheel in a turn...

If its coasting, if it's not and you have a twin stick, then its not likely a problem either (front dig).

 

[mbryson]

I thought to change out the outers it took more than just a drive flange and stub. I thought it was a lot more involved. Because of this thought, I was going to swap knuckle out with GM stuff... Not only for the added king pin strength, but because of the difficulty in the swap. From what I understand GM/Dodge is as simple as you say, but Ford isn't.

I know Carl's had both a GM and Ford front D60 axle. I've worked on a few of each and they're almost 100% the same. I think the Ford axle stub is slightly longer or shorter and that's about the only difference. If you get the right length stub, the swap shouldn't be a problem at all.

The only differences I know of are the stub shaft length, the bearing hub and the spindle. Personally, I'd run the Ford stuff until it became a problem (which I doubt it will) and swap over if I've become too familiar with it. At that point, I think Dedenbear or ??? would be a better option than swapping to stock GM/Dodge stuff.

 

[waynehartwig]

I found this on Pirate... Did they start doing this in 78 or stop? The reading isn't very clear about years, other than aproximately (definition of circa) 1978. Or is 78 the only year this was an issue?

What components do I need to change a stock 30 spline Ford Dana 60 king pin front (circa 1978) to 35 spline stub shafts?

You can use Dodge or GM knuckles out. The GM / Dodge spindles are longer which is what you need to fit the 35 spline stubs. I haven’t seen it done but I have heard about guys using the 35 spline stubs and just cutting them down. This might work but it doesn’t leave much spline contact for your lockout. You could also machine a spacer that spaces the spindle out from the knuckle.

Knuckles out. Chevy King-pin. You get Chevy knuckle/spindle/hub/caliper/brakes and it is a bolt on swap. You have to re-drill the GM spindle pattern to match the Ford knuckle if you use just the GM spindles and not the knuckles.

Wagoner Machine Shop and Dynatrac sell 35 spline outer stub shafts for the Ford D60.

Differential Engineering in FL. sell a Ford 35 spline outer kit. It comes with the Warn lockouts and shafts for $475. The kit also uses Spicer Chevy length 35 spline outers. To make up for the different length of the outers, they cut .600" the end of the shaft, re-cut the snap-ting groove, and relieve the splines at the end. Then the inner bearing race is replaced with part number 382S that spaces the hub and rotor out aprox. 1/8". The 382s is the Timken number for the Dana60 carrier bearing race. If you need an application to quote to the counter-man, you can go to www.timkeninfo.com and search for 382s and you will end up with 265 pages of applications!

The Ford stub axle, hub and spindle are .600" shorter than the Chevy. If you do cut it down then I don't know if you will run out of spline before the slug bottoms out or if it is enough engagement to be a real upgrade. One other problem with cutting off the end is loosing the snap ring groove that holds the V-seal up tight against the back side of the spindle to keep out most of the water.

On this stub modification, we have be doing this for five years, remove .600 from the end and re-cut snap ring groove and relieve the spline at the end for the gear to slip past a little. This stubs and locking hubs have be through hell, 8,000 lbs. tug of war on concrete, 50.000 lbs. sled pull's. "U" joint failures but not at the stub shaft. Steve, Differential Eng. inc.

I will second what Steve said...we have done it that way also, with equally great results. Wheelers/truck pullers here have been doing that for a long time and never an issue or failure caused by the modification that I have seen.

Note: Whichever method you choose, you will need to run 35 spline drive flanges or lockout hub - see chart above for details.

 

[mbryson]

I found this on Pirate... Did they start doing this in 78 or stop? The reading isn't very clear about years, other than aproximately (definition of circa) 1978. Or is 78 the only year this was an issue?

What components do I need to change a stock 30 spline Ford Dana 60 king pin front (circa 1978) to 35 spline stub shafts?

You can use Dodge or GM knuckles out. The GM / Dodge spindles are longer which is what you need to fit the 35 spline stubs. I haven’t seen it done but I have heard about guys using the 35 spline stubs and just cutting them down. This might work but it doesn’t leave much spline contact for your lockout. You could also machine a spacer that spaces the spindle out from the knuckle.

Knuckles out. Chevy King-pin. You get Chevy knuckle/spindle/hub/caliper/brakes and it is a bolt on swap. You have to re-drill the GM spindle pattern to match the Ford knuckle if you use just the GM spindles and not the knuckles.

Wagoner Machine Shop and Dynatrac sell 35 spline outer stub shafts for the Ford D60.

Differential Engineering in FL. sell a Ford 35 spline outer kit. It comes with the Warn lockouts and shafts for $475. The kit also uses Spicer Chevy length 35 spline outers. To make up for the different length of the outers, they cut .600" the end of the shaft, re-cut the snap-ting groove, and relieve the splines at the end. Then the inner bearing race is replaced with part number 382S that spaces the hub and rotor out aprox. 1/8". The 382s is the Timken number for the Dana60 carrier bearing race. If you need an application to quote to the counter-man, you can go to www.timkeninfo.com and search for 382s and you will end up with 265 pages of applications!

The Ford stub axle, hub and spindle are .600" shorter than the Chevy. If you do cut it down then I don't know if you will run out of spline before the slug bottoms out or if it is enough engagement to be a real upgrade. One other problem with cutting off the end is loosing the snap ring groove that holds the V-seal up tight against the back side of the spindle to keep out most of the water.

On this stub modification, we have be doing this for five years, remove .600 from the end and re-cut snap ring groove and relieve the spline at the end for the gear to slip past a little. This stubs and locking hubs have be through hell, 8,000 lbs. tug of war on concrete, 50.000 lbs. sled pull's. "U" joint failures but not at the stub shaft. Steve, Differential Eng. inc.

I will second what Steve said...we have done it that way also, with equally great results. Wheelers/truck pullers here have been doing that for a long time and never an issue or failure caused by the modification that I have seen.

Note: Whichever method you choose, you will need to run 35 spline drive flanges or lockout hub - see chart above for details.

I'd call Yukon or ????. I'm sure they've been through this a couple of times.

 

[waynehartwig]

I'd call Yukon or ????. I'm sure they've been through this a couple of times.

I can do that...

 

[Caleb]

yukon offers 35 spline outers for Ford stuff, I'd personally go that route. If you insist on going with stock parts you can get a GM and cut ~5/8" off the end, cut a net c-clip groove and run it. There is also (you'd need to search to get part numbers and exact details) a way of running a different race that is a littel thicker and it somehow makes it jsut right to run stock GM stubs in a Ford 60.

FWIW, I had that exact axle (88 Ford HP60) in my buggy. The main disadvantage to that axle is for YJs, a 78-79 will almost bolt right in, the 80+ you have to outboard your springs. This obviously is not an issue for you . Also you will have less driver side tube to work with so getting all your link brackets and such in there can get tight, but it's doable. Rocklogic (Carl and Von) setup my links and they had to have the heim spacers turned down just a little on the driver side because there was just not enough tube.

 

[Meat_]

If you are staying with 35's run the stock shafts until you break them. I'm still on stock shafts with 38'5's with more weight and more power.

 

[RockMonkey]

If you insist on going with stock parts you can get a GM and cut ~5/8" off the end, cut a net c-clip groove and run it.

FWIW I never cut a new c-clip groove in mine. I just cut them down to fit and ran them with no c-clip. I know many others have done the same with success.

If you are staying with 35's run the stock shafts until you break them. I'm still on stock shafts with 38'5's with more weight and more power.

The problem with that is when you do break the 30 spline stub you can mess up the hub, spindle, bearings, and possibly the locker if you're running a Detroit. It's fairly cheap and easy to upgrade to 35 spline. It's worth doing while you're building the axle.

 

[Caleb]

FWIW I never cut a new c-clip groove in mine. I just cut them down ti fit and ran them with no c-clip. I know many others have done the same with success.

Yeah, I've heard of guys doing that, I'd probably do it myself as well (if I ran stock 35 spline outers), but I don't have any first hand experience so I didn't want to suggest it

I know the Yukon outers (which are atleast as strong as stock, probably slightly stronger) are fairly cheap, something like $200 for the pair...that'd be worth the upgrade IMO

 

[Meat_]

...The problem with that is when you do break the 30 spline stub you can mess up the hub, spindle, bearings, and possibly the locker if you're running a Detroit. It's fairly cheap and easy to upgrade to 35 spline. It's worth doing while you're building the axle.

Good argument for me to finally upgrade, but not for him with 35's a 4.0 an ARB and the intent to change the the hub, spindle and knuckle anyway.

I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't upgrade to alloys, just that he's stronger stock than the 44 he wanted to build and that the shaft mess is just as easily done a few months after he has everything bolted up to his Rubi.

 

[RockMonkey]

Good argument for me to finally upgrade, but not for him with 35's a 4.0 an ARB and the intent to change the the hub, spindle and knuckle anyway.

I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't upgrade to alloys, just that he's stronger stock than the 44 he wanted to build and that the shaft mess is just as easily done a few months after he has everything bolted up to his Rubi.

I broke my 30 spline stub with a 4.0 36s. At least I think it was 36s, I've been through so many different sizes of tire... Anyway, it messed up the spindle and hub, and I wished I would have just upgraded the stubs in the first place.

 

[Meat_]

I broke my 30 spline stub with a 4.0 36s. At least I think it was 36s, I've been through so many different sizes of tire... Anyway, it messed up the spindle and hub, and I wished I would have just upgraded the stubs in the first place.

In a TJ or on a buggy?

 

[waynehartwig]

yukon offers 35 spline outers for Ford stuff, I'd personally go that route. If you insist on going with stock parts you can get a GM and cut ~5/8" off the end, cut a net c-clip groove and run it. There is also (you'd need to search to get part numbers and exact details) a way of running a different race that is a littel thicker and it somehow makes it jsut right to run stock GM stubs in a Ford 60.

FWIW, I had that exact axle (88 Ford HP60) in my buggy. The main disadvantage to that axle is for YJs, a 78-79 will almost bolt right in, the 80+ you have to outboard your springs. This obviously is not an issue for you . Also you will have less driver side tube to work with so getting all your link brackets and such in there can get tight, but it's doable. Rocklogic (Carl and Von) setup my links and they had to have the heim spacers turned down just a little on the driver side because there was just not enough tube.

Yup, they do offer them...

Got pics of your front axle setup - I bet it is what mine will end up - if not at least close... I got to thinking about this problem after I bought the 88 axle!

The uppers will go straight back, and the lowers will angle in. I plan on making one mount that is ~6" long (tall) and both uppers and lowers will mount to it (each side). The lower part will be angled in... That way I can keep both about the right place without taking up a lot of real estate. I'm also doing coil overs at the same time, so I won't have all of the spring buckets and such hanging off the axle, too. I figure if I _have_ to, I can mount the coil over or anti rock on the CA mount to conserve even more real estate....

 

[waynehartwig]

I broke my 30 spline stub with a 4.0 36s. At least I think it was 36s, I've been through so many different sizes of tire... Anyway, it messed up the spindle and hub, and I wished I would have just upgraded the stubs in the first place.

This is my fear as well... Will I ever break 30 spline stubs? I'm running 27 splined ones now with 4.88's and not breaking them. But building the axle is a good time to do this. Especially when I could be busting up a spindle later - and still upgrading. Point being, I can see both you and Meat's point here - to upgrade now or later?

 

[Caleb]

I know I have some pics, I'll see if I can dig up some good ones.

 

[waynehartwig]

Good argument for me to finally upgrade, but not for him with 35's a 4.0 an ARB and the intent to change the the hub, spindle and knuckle anyway.

I was only goign to swap knuckle out to do the 35 spline outer...Or maybe to go to 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern. Since I'm doing 60's, I doubt I will change bolt pattern now. Just run it with the 8 lug.... I'm also tempted in not even narrowing them. I'm going to put them under and see how far they will stick out and if I can fab up something decent to keep the tires covered, but maybe removable for the trails.

 

[waynehartwig]

I know I have some pics, I'll see if I can dig up some good ones.

 

[I Lean]

I broke one 30 spline outer in my GM 60 behind a 4.3/TH350/D300/4.10's. No deep gearing, no large amounts of torque. The broken stub "swelled" the spindle enough that it ruined the spindle nuts, and screwed up the wheel bearings trying to get them off.

The cost of the new spindle was about the same cost as two 35 spline stubs.

If I were to do it again (and I did) I'd just go straight to 35 spline stuff. I'd prolly just buy the Yukon alloy stuff I ended up with, since I ruined the Spicer 35 spline shafts I started with.

 

[waynehartwig]

I broke one 30 spline outer in my GM 60 behind a 4.3/TH350/D300/4.10's. No deep gearing, no large amounts of torque. The broken stub "swelled" the spindle enough that it ruined the spindle nuts, and screwed up the wheel bearings trying to get them off.

The cost of the new spindle was about the same cost as two 35 spline stubs.

If I were to do it again (and I did) I'd just go straight to 35 spline stuff. I'd prolly just buy the Yukon alloy stuff I ended up with, since I ruined the Spicer 35 spline shafts I started with.

Exactly what I'm afraid of... I think I'll just bite the big one, and upgrade it right off with 4340's 35/35 spline. Then I can use the SPicer stuff for trail spares or paper weights...