Debate over RS and Con----Why are we as 4WD enthusiasts our own worst enemy at times?

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by shmoesmith
I think as far as the trail rating signs go, this is an excelent idea, however I think that alot of people on this board under-rate the trails......

Good point, that is why we need you there to promote your needs when any planning/brainstorming occurs. Get others like you to do the same thing. The whole idea here IS to have a broad diversity of users, not just one group that makes all the rules. When that happens, the conflict starts all over.

That is the first time I have ever heard RS considered a 4, but you are correct, comparing it to some trails in Moab, it is a 3+, 4 trail... Rating will be difficult but can be overcome by good trail descriptions.

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by shmoesmith
I think as far as the trail rating signs go, this is an excelent idea, however I think that alot of people on this board under-rate the trails...I have driven alot of 3.5 and 4 rated trails that are "officially" rated 3.5 or 4 in moab and alot of the trails that people on here give a 3.5 or 4 are actually considerably harder than the ones that were 3.5 or 4 in moab. I think this is due to the users on here owning customer rock crawling shops and competition grade vehicles etc so what would be a 4 rating anywhere else is sudenly just a 3. As a simple example, poison spider messa in moab rated a 4....I thought that rattlesnake was harder than it imho. I think that if any signs and trail ratings were to be posted they should follow generally accepted guidlines such as those in the charles a wells book on moab trails or the redrock 4wheelers in moab give for trails during easter safari. by following these guidlines from either of those 2 sources you get a much more accurate picture of what a trail is going to be like..when I go to moab and get on a 4 or 4+ trail or even a 3 or 3+ I know EXACTLY what to expect, i go somewhere else and get the 4x4 groups general opionion on the trail rating, it tends to be vastly different depending on who is giving the opinion and how built up their rig is.....sorry ramble, just my 2C

-Doug

Doug, I think Poison Spider is a 3.5 by the Red Rock 4 wheelers. I'd have to entertain that the Rattlesnake trail is very similar with the exception of the loose rocks through the center of the trail.

Good point though....We would need to make the 'rating system' consistent with something.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by Nuber
...Kurt, you're "connected"? Wow, and I knew you when......

...I was just a rookie to all this club stuff

You the man Brett....

Is a copy of the proposed plan available for my pondering anywhere... I would love to look at it.

 

[mbryson]

Looking for Hammers signs.......just a minute Nuber.....

 

[my4thjeep]

Stu Olsen's Jeep Website http://www.stu-offroad.com

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by my4thjeep
Stu Olsen's Jeep Website http://www.stu-offroad.com

NICE prose .....that's not exactly what I was remebering though. (I remembered them as brown squares like a warning sign)

 

[Floppy Hat]

Are these the signs you're thinking of Mr. Bryson:

This particular one is in Las Cruces.

One of the "ideas" behind protecting signs from gun shots is to place them in a manner in which they aren't visible from a long distance. Proponents of this idea suggest that placing them where they can't be seen by people more then ten feet away reduces the chance that people will want to shoot at them. Of course the BLM people should know this.

 

[EZRhino]

Funny, this thread sounds suspiciously like this thread:

http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4170

I don't have much faith in the BLM. They aren't going to let us build trails any old where. In fact, RS and Con are more than likely not officially created and approved, to put it nicely. You don't think I want a trail system? Oh you bet I do.

I would suggest just doing it first and asking permission later. Monkey...you were right on track about the steel pipe concreted into the ground with 1/4" plate welded to it, except about the ugly part. Give it a nice coat of white paint, it'll look fine. Don't put them in super conspicuous places......i.e., for RS, put the sign as you start up the gulch, where the tan colored sandy-dirt is at the bottom. Another idea, someone design a poster to put up on that kiosk near the highway with Marc's posted rules as stated above.

Let's start by adding signs and officially adopting the trail. Continue with the recognized clean up efforts (make sure the BLM knows we're doing it), and slowly go from there. Add one thing at a time, slowly the BLM will know we are a force to be reckoned with. Right now we are just their trash pickup beotches.

EZ

Now who wants to build the first sign? Hmm......my dad has an auger on his john deere, we could sink a signpost down 6 feet.....

 

[EZRhino]

Oh, and add the words " we can see you through the 10x scope of my 30.06 hunting rifle. Be sure to follow the rules. You are being watched......CLOSELY!!"

EZ

 

[Maverick]

No, no, YOU da Man!

Britta would be the one that can set you up with a copy and 'xplain it to ya

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit


...I was just a rookie to all this club stuff

You the man Brett....

Is a copy of the proposed plan available for my pondering anywhere... I would love to look at it.

 

[RockMonkey]

Originally posted by Nuber
There's been a plan for this area, with 4x4 routes, signs, etc, that we did with the BLM, that's been sitting on the Gov's desk for about 3-4 years...he hasn't signed it because the area borders on the area affected by the nuke storage stuff (Skull Valley). I'm all for keeping the dialogue going and the trail building going though, so that hopefully this new stuff will be added to the plan.

Anyone got pics of the Hammers signs that we can show Britta?

Kurt, you're "connected"? Wow, and I knew you when...

Brett

Do we need the governers signature to start acting on this stuff? I mean, it's already designated land for our use, can't we maintain it and improve it?

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by Floppy Hat
Are these the signs you're thinking of Mr. Bryson:

This particular one is in Las Cruces.

One of the "ideas" behind protecting signs from gun shots is to place them in a manner in which they aren't visible from a long distance. Proponents of this idea suggest that placing them where they can't be seen by people more then ten feet away reduces the chance that people will want to shoot at them. Of course the BLM people should know this.

That's the type I'm thinking of......

 

[RockMonkey]

Originally posted by EZRhino
Funny, this thread sounds suspiciously like this thread:

http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4170

I don't have much faith in the BLM. They aren't going to let us build trails any old where. In fact, RS and Con are more than likely not officially created and approved, to put it nicely. You don't think I want a trail system? Oh you bet I do.

I would suggest just doing it first and asking permission later. Monkey...you were right on track about the steel pipe concreted into the ground with 1/4" plate welded to it, except about the ugly part. Give it a nice coat of white paint, it'll look fine. Don't put them in super conspicuous places......i.e., for RS, put the sign as you start up the gulch, where the tan colored sandy-dirt is at the bottom. Another idea, someone design a poster to put up on that kiosk near the highway with Marc's posted rules as stated above.

Let's start by adding signs and officially adopting the trail. Continue with the recognized clean up efforts (make sure the BLM knows we're doing it), and slowly go from there. Add one thing at a time, slowly the BLM will know we are a force to be reckoned with. Right now we are just their trash pickup beotches.

EZ

Now who wants to build the first sign? Hmm......my dad has an auger on his john deere, we could sink a signpost down 6 feet.....

Okay, so make a big burly sign, paint it so it doesn't look so ugly, and position it so it can't be seen from far away. We'd just prolly have to re-paint it occasionally to keep the rust off and to keep it readable. I think having a maintained trail, with a sign, stating difficulty and maybe something about the route distance or something would really give the "new" trails some credibility and help us keep them open. I agree with EZ. It's easier (EZer?) to ask for forgiveness than permission. We could wait forever for the governer (who isn't even the governer any more?) to sign our proposal, but once it is done, and looks good, they're not gonna take it down.

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by mbryson

TRAIL ETIQUETTE:
1) Stacking rocks to help someone over an obstacle is fine......not putting them back where you found them isn't.

2) Trail Trash---clean up after yourself and someone else. EVERY 'big league' wheeler I've run a trail with has ALWAYS taught me something. THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT as it's the most visible thing we can do to promote our sport. Take out more than you bring in. If we can establish that as a 'pride' thing, maybe it will catch on?
---carnage trash- So you break on the trail. It happens to everybody. Carry something, a plastic bag or whatever, a fold-up shovel and some pride in 'leaving it like you found it' and clean up any spilled liquids. If you dump something on the rock, at least clean up the 'wet' stuff, and try some sand or other trail dirt to draw out the 'stain' left on the rock.

3) Obstacles----Don't we all just love the dude that will try an obstacle for 30 minutes .... I'm all for trying obstacles, but if you haven't made it in 4-5 tries......take a strap or cable. This will keep traffic moving along and keep your rig in decent shape 'cuz you won't be busting parts when you're p!ssed after your 29th attempt. Isn't that a courtesy?

4) BE PREPARED---Boy Scouts are, why aren't we? We are 'out there' by design. Bring some munchies, drinks and a few tools. Things 'happen' when you 'get away' and you need to be ready for almost anything. No one needs to bring as much as the 'Tool Shed', but some basic stuff can be stuck in a tool bag and tucked under the seat of a Sami or Wrangler (or whatever). First aid stuff, and a fire extinguisher could be pretty nice, huh?

5) BYPASSES-----WTF????? I've NEVER understood and NEVER will understand those. I HATE seeing those on trails such as Pritchett Canyon (or anywhere else for that matter---Hell's Revenge shouldn't have those, IMHO....if you can't do the trails 'signature' obstacles there are MANY other trails.....go do those---ride along with someone if you must do the 'hard' trails). If you can't do the obstacles in that trail DON'T GO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are MANY trails for you. Try stacking some rocks and being winched up. Don't impact the surrounding area. Please remember to put the stacked rocks back where you found them.

Are those the ONLY Rules/Ettiquette that needs to be there? That can't cover everything..... I made that up in 15 minutes. There's got to be more.

Are these 'universal' rules (any area, any time, any vehicle?)? I'd like to see some other opinions.

 

[Maverick]

The BLM needs the sig for THEM to enact the management plan...I think we ought to keep on doing what we are doing, we'll be lold(er) and gray(er) if we wait for them.

Anyone have a shot of the signs on the Rubicon? Like at the parking lot on the Tahoe side? There's other signs at the Hammers too that I've seen.

Originally posted by RockMonkey

Do we need the governers signature to start acting on this stuff? I mean, it's already designated land for our use, can't we maintain it and improve it?

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by mbryson
OK.....I'm sick of the 'sh!tty' attitudes and posts. Every time a new 'sacred' (they are, it's our land and our hobby---OURS, not mine, not yours, not his, not hers, OURS) trail, we have the same kind of debate. There was whining about the RattleSnake trail getting too hard. People heard that and reopened an old trail for semi-Extreme to EXTREME use......it's now getting changed and not in natural ways.......

Here's how I see it.

Rattlesnake---3.0-3.5, 31" tires and maybe a locker required. An 'assist' device could be nice for the waterfall, but it is passable by a skilled driver or someone that is 'committed'.


Constrictor---4.5-5.0+, I shouldn't comment as I've never physically seen this trail. From the pictures that I've seen, 33-35" tires are a requirement and expect body or drivetrain damage. Winch or 'buddy' required. IF YOU CAN'T DO RATTLESNAKE, STAY AWAY. This trail is not for the people that 'pave' trails.

ANY difference of opinion on the ratings and purpose of each trail? Don't we need a balance of trails? Should we all drive KJ's with 29" tires so we don't do any extreme wheeling and pave everything so we can? Talk about impact ......yeah back up the 10 wheeler and dump a load of gravel so I can make it 'over' this area.......--------go play in the mud at a construction site if that's your idea of wheeling. Why do we feel that we have to change a trail to make it 'better' (harder or easier)? Can't we just live with the natural elements that are present and go from there?

Any other sensitive areas that should be discussed? Moab has changed A LOT since I started going there 6-7 years ago. I don't like how it's changed and would like to see the area less impacted. The 'bypass/trail building' mentality seems to be causing the problem, IMHO.

 

[pokeyYJ]

Originally posted by mbryson




Are those the ONLY Rules/Ettiquette that needs to be there? That can't cover everything..... I made that up in 15 minutes. There's got to be more.

Are these 'universal' rules (any area, any time, any vehicle?)? I'd like to see some other opinions.

I think that those rules are good ones to start with but I think that everyone will have their own ideas of what to expect on the trail.

I for one would like to see some sort of trail curtesy. I know that there are guidelines to follow for rigs that are going up and coming down. But I mean stuff like DONT BLOCK THE TRIAL!! Or if you break down try and move out of the way and let others pass. Maybe even turn down your stereo, I hate it when I am trying to go up the trail and someone behind me or whatever has their freakin' Eminem blasting on their stereo.




As for wondering if we are our own enemy, I think that most of these discussion's stem from the fact that everyone has it in their heads how a trail should be.

I for one think that trials should be left as they were, and if you are not built enough to do the trail get off! But it goes both ways, if you are over-built and go on easy trails looking for a challange GET OFF!

(I tried to explain the other points of view, but I can't without making it seem like i am poking fun)

 

[RockMonkey]

Perhaps the very first thing we should do then is make a sign for RS and put it up? Just maybe state the major rules in a few words, give the name of the trail, and maybe some kind of plea to clean up after yourself to help keep the trail open?
Example:

Rattlesnake 4x4 Trail
1.4 miles (?) Rating: 3.5
Please observe the following simple
Rules to help keep this trail open!
1. Clean up after yourself and respect the land.
2. If you stack rocks to aid a vehicle please unstack them.
3. DO NOT make any bypasses or new routes.
4. Please be safe and wear your seatbelt.


We could put all that on a small sign, and hopefully it would help people "get it" that the future of our land use rights is up to them.

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by pokeyYJ



I think that those rules are good ones to start with but I think that everyone will have their own ideas of what to expect on the trail.

I for one would like to see some sort of trail curtesy. I know that there are guidelines to follow for rigs that are going up and coming down. But I mean stuff like DONT BLOCK THE TRIAL!! Or if you break down try and move out of the way and let others pass. Maybe even turn down your stereo, I hate it when I am trying to go up the trail and someone behind me or whatever has their freakin' Eminem blasting on their stereo.




As for wondering if we are our own enemy, I think that most of these discussion's stem from the fact that everyone has it in their heads how a trail should be.

I for one think that trials should be left as they were, and if you are not built enough to do the trail get off! But it goes both ways, if you are over-built and go on easy trails looking for a challange GET OFF!

(I tried to explain the other points of view, but I can't without making it seem like i am poking fun)

HEY....you're one of the guys I wanted to hear from. Good comments.

Stereos when wheeling........come on................I don't care what you are listening too. Turn it down or OFF. Consider that I really don't enjoy being forced into listening to Shania Twain or any other 'country' artists {'modern' country is not Country Music, IMHO}. I'd MUCH rather hear Eminem {SHE is MUCH better to look at, though}, but you'll find me jamming to other things as I don't care for him either. If your stereo can be heard over your engine noise or from over 6 ft. away, I think it's too loud. That's my opinion.

I don't have a problem with over-built rigs running an easy trail. I do have a problem with people wanting to change a trail from it's 'natural' state.
Example: I have a favorite trail in Moab called 'Onion Creek'.....any putz in a stock YJ can run this trail. It's short, wet, and a great change from some of the other fun things I do down there. I'll run this trail as long as I can. There's some neat things to share on that trail. I don't want to see giant boulders put there as that would take away some of it's charm. If a 'giant' boulder happens to fall off the canyon wall and change the trail, there's not much we can do, but I'd be disappointed if I learned that someone did that on purpose.
I am seriously overbuilt for that trail. Am I not going to run it?---p!ss off. I'll run it if I want to.

POKE fun.......in a tactful way. Did I mention I was moderating?

 

[Hickey]

as far as a tasteful sign goes, we could have it laser cut, with a mountain-ish scene around the edges, to make it look nicer. I really like the Idea of more signage, it makes people aware that other people are using this area too.