Lack of Patriotism

[phatfoto]

One thing I hated when active duty, was to hear, "Close enough for government work"... That is always from someone that takes no pride in a job well done. I see in the contracting world too. Sad.

GIJohn, congrats brother.

While I wasn't pleased with the outcome in 92, since you bring it up, I was happy with the 94 midterms. I was surprised that Clinton won again in 96. Look, I don't believe he was a good POTUS. He wasn't all that bad either. Except for HIS disrespect of the office and his disrespect for the PEOPLE. I'm specifically annoyed with his wagging his finger at us and lieing to us. Dude, the gal was not pretty, but at least own up to it and admit you made a mistake. I might have had some respect for you. No, I do not believe he is a good MAN.

I won't even get into Bush v. Gore or Kerry, other than I THOUGHT he would be better than either. Why do we always seem to have bad and worse presented to us anymore for top job in the land? This cycle was just more of the same.

I expect to see lands shut down, freedoms removed (for our own good at that) and worse.

2010, we need another Newt...

 

[great scott]

How about all the freedoms we are lossing every day;

Land,

Guns,

Voting,

and the list goes on.

It's no longer about people choice but power and leverage.

Good thread, stirs some thoughts.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

"The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." COLOR]

LT.

Did you read my posts on the last page
And our property is in dire distress. I consider my hard earned money my property

 

[TRNDRVR]

This is the greatest Nation in the World!! Bar none.

Are you really sure about this??? (country is divided, 2 wars, economy in shambles) I just don't see it anymore. Sorry!!!

Nation that will remain Indivisible,

Too late!

provided that all will come together reguardless of personal beliefs.

It'll NEVER happen. (not in our lifetime)

So, do what you will with your freedoms.

I do.

I will stand side by side with my brothers and my sisters to protect this nation and its freedoms.

Please, don't go out of your way on my account.

Your are, of corse, free to do what you will just don't tread on our fallen comrades.

I do, and I don't.

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

Tacoma I edited my post to be less of an a-hole.. But seriously, 10 years ago there was a good shot we probably all knew a bunch of people on welfare. I forget the stats but it went down to almost nothing. 10-15 years ago it was totally socially acceptable to be fat, lazy, single and live in a trailer with your 5 kids, and suck off the gov't. I think they reduced welfare to almost nothing. You have to make something like $12G or less a year to qualify for welfare... When you maybe $12g a year your living on cornfakes and quick oats multiple meals a day, especially if you have kids... To me the welfare narrative is a story to get folks rialed up, people get really heated about it... When again it's not totally but largely fixed...

If you guys want wait till I start posting some of the double-standard Obama-McCain emails that were floating around. Exposes real underlying racism about our culture... Real double standards, and I think this thread is one of them. We have to go back to Bush. Literally every single one of his major policy initiatives has been a failure. Wrapped up in the hype of 9-11 he talked the county into bombing a country 3000 miles from the place where the guys who were attacked. Seattle attacked us and we attacked Texas in return. Supposedly terrorist recruitment surged badly. Just today several suicide bombings alone (people willing to die for their cause), they are near daily/happen several times a week. According Fox News, the Feds hacked into the #1 website where Al Queda communicates with each other and supposedly Al Queda would actually prefer McCain because of his stance on Iraq and for recruitment issues... http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/22/al-qaeda-linked-web-site-backs-mccain-president/

Anyway, you have to imagine for example President Bush giving advice to Obama. "Barack, let me tell you how to fix the economy, win this war, deal with taxes, and deal with social issues." The problem of course: no credibility what so ever... Much like this arguement. The country is going to hell in a hand-basket! Sure... Right... Like it could really get any worse. Like rooting for this team again, somehow they really did have it right the first time despite that their in last place...

LT thank you for your post and service too, reallly appreciated as is your post here...

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Please, don't go out of your way on my account. QUOTE]


This comment is in poor taste. It is the willingness of are all volunteer military to go out of there way to protect us that makes them truly great. Even if our elected leaders put them in bad situations.

Thank you LT and your fellow soldiers.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Tacoma I edited my post to be less of an a-hole.. But seriously, 10 years ago there was a good shot we probably all knew a bunch of people on welfare. I forget the stats but it went down to almost nothing. 10-15 years ago it was totally socially acceptable to be fat, lazy, single and live in a trailer with your 5 kids, and suck off the gov't. I think they reduced welfare to almost nothing. You have to make something like $12G or less a year to qualify for welfare... When you maybe $12g a year your living on cornfakes and quick oats multiple meals a day, especially if you have kids... To me the welfare narrative is a story to get folks rialed up, people get really heated about it... When again it's not totally but largely fixed...

If you guys want wait till I start posting some of the double-standard Obama-McCain emails that were floating around. Exposes real underlying racism about our culture... Real double standards, and I think this thread is one of them. We have to go back to Bush. Literally every single one of his major policy initiatives has been a failure. Wrapped up in the hype of 9-11 he talked the county into bombing a country 3000 miles from the place where the guys who were attacked. Seattle attacked us and we attacked Texas in return. Supposedly terrorist recruitment surged badly. Just today several suicide bombings alone (people willing to die for their cause), they are near daily/happen several times a week. According Fox News, the Feds hacked into the #1 website where Al Queda communicates with each other and supposedly Al Queda would actually prefer McCain because of his stance on Iraq and for recruitment issues... http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/22/al-qaeda-linked-web-site-backs-mccain-president/

Anyway, you have to imagine for example President Bush giving advice to Obama. "Barack, let me tell you how to fix the economy, win this war, deal with taxes, and deal with social issues." The problem of course: no credibility what so ever... Much like this arguement. The country is going to hell in a hand-basket! Sure... Right... Like it could really get any worse. Like rooting for this team again, somehow they really did have it right the first time despite that their in last place...

Damn Dude not everything is about bush get over it he is almost gone.

 

[TRNDRVR]

Please, don't go out of your way on my account. QUOTE]


This comment is in poor taste. It is the willingness of are all volunteer military to go out of there way to protect us that makes them truly great. Even if our elected leaders put them in bad situations.

Thank you LT and your fellow soldiers.

Why?

Can I not have an opinion?

Sorry if my opinion stings a little. But it's still just that.....my opinion.

By the way, I do support our troops, I just don't support Bush's cause.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

I said it is in poor taste
Is that not an opinion?

 

[TRNDRVR]

I said it is in poor taste
Is that not an opinion?

I say it's not.

We're even.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...By the way, I do support our troops, I just don't support Bush's cause.

Refresh my memory, was Bush (and the Republicans) the only ones that voted to send us to Iraq??

Please define "Bush's cause"

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Tacoma I edited my post to be less of an a-hole.. But seriously, 10 years ago there was a good shot we probably all knew a bunch of people on welfare. I forget the stats but it went down to almost nothing. 10-15 years ago it was totally socially acceptable to be fat, lazy, single and live in a trailer with your 5 kids, and suck off the gov't. I think they reduced welfare to almost nothing. You have to make something like $12G or less a year to qualify for welfare... When you maybe $12g a year your living on cornfakes and quick oats multiple meals a day, especially if you have kids... To me the welfare narrative is a story to get folks rialed up, people get really heated about it... When again it's not totally but ...

This is the first I've heard about a declining Welfare... I did a quick google search and all I could find was exactly the opposite:

 

[Corban_White]

Refresh my memory, was Bush (and the Republicans) the only ones that voted to send us to Iraq??

Please define "Bush's cause"

I too would like to know. The last time I checked the president by himself did not have the power to send this country to war.

 

[Tacoma]

I liked your unedited post.


You make some excellent points... but I disagree about welfare, especially and mainly in urban areas. Before I left NY, I had a nightly battle with folks on welfare trying to hit me up for "a dolla", wearing brand-new clothes. It was perfectly acceptable to THEM to stay on welfare. And no, it wasn't just black folks, either.
Working in every major city from Bangor, ME to Atlanta for 10 years gave me some empirical evidence to the reality of the observation. Looking at the vote maps for the last 4 elections bears it out as well. The Gubmint need to do it for me!!! Rich folk needs ta pay up!!

Class warfare is the new racism, and it's just as wrong. That said, yes, there are a lot of loopholes good accountants can take advantage of. I think that's wrong as well. So let's revamp the tax code, I like a flat tax and maybe some kind of sales tax. Those are good, fair ideas. FAR too many people that can work, won't. In some places, welfare pays better than the local job market. That's wrong. Take away the incentive, and there is no reason to work.

As for terrorism, I'm not sure Iraq was the best idea, but let's remember:
1. Saddam had been in violation of every freakin' UN sanction
2. Iraq was shooting at planes in the no-fly zone
3. Intelligence that EVERYONE believed said: WMD's.

Also recall the Syrian and Chechen ID on a lot of the fighters killed over there. Proof that at least one part of the idea worked-- keep them fighting us there and they won't be here.
And that is not claiming that Iraq is a success, at all. History may yet prove that it was the right thing to do, though. Or not!!

At any rate, here we find ourselves. The world's not going to implode because Obama is president.

Tacoma I edited my post to be less of an a-hole.. But seriously, 10 years ago there was a good shot we probably all knew a bunch of people on welfare. I forget the stats but it went down to almost nothing. 10-15 years ago it was totally socially acceptable to be fat, lazy, single and live in a trailer with your 5 kids, and suck off the gov't. I think they reduced welfare to almost nothing. You have to make something like $12G or less a year to qualify for welfare... When you maybe $12g a year your living on cornfakes and quick oats multiple meals a day, especially if you have kids... To me the welfare narrative is a story to get folks rialed up, people get really heated about it... When again it's not totally but largely fixed...

If you guys want wait till I start posting some of the double-standard Obama-McCain emails that were floating around. Exposes real underlying racism about our culture... Real double standards, and I think this thread is one of them. We have to go back to Bush. Literally every single one of his major policy initiatives has been a failure. Wrapped up in the hype of 9-11 he talked the county into bombing a country 3000 miles from the place where the guys who were attacked. Seattle attacked us and we attacked Texas in return. Supposedly terrorist recruitment surged badly. Just today several suicide bombings alone (people willing to die for their cause), they are near daily/happen several times a week. According Fox News, the Feds hacked into the #1 website where Al Queda communicates with each other and supposedly Al Queda would actually prefer McCain because of his stance on Iraq and for recruitment issues... http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/22/al-qaeda-linked-web-site-backs-mccain-president/

Anyway, you have to imagine for example President Bush giving advice to Obama. "Barack, let me tell you how to fix the economy, win this war, deal with taxes, and deal with social issues." The problem of course: no credibility what so ever... Much like this arguement. The country is going to hell in a hand-basket! Sure... Right... Like it could really get any worse. Like rooting for this team again, somehow they really did have it right the first time despite that their in last place...

LT thank you for your post and service too, reallly appreciated as is your post here...

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

Kurt check the data since 2000 as its declined since then. It was supposedly legislation from 1996 that made the change, authored by Klinton (I voted Obama but do not/never liked Clinton). Anyway, it is a by-partisan issue not one sided is my point... It's also the same with ULS diesel fuel for example, another Clinton initiative (whether its good or bad - just an example) that Clinton put in, Bush didn't do a thing, and Bush took credit because it came in on his watch... USLD was actually one of "Bush's" only environmental achievements...

The bush bush bush comments, it is not that I am harping over Bush, I'm just pointing out with all the hell in a hand basket talk there is nothing, whatsoever, to stand on... And finally, the dude was elected 6 days ago! He hasn't even gotten to office yet! A little premature even if it were true.

Also it is not lack of patriotism, it is just people feeling down because their dude didn't win. I'm thinking patriotism is flowing stronger than ever if you ask me... And finally, regardless of what side you are on, it was a hell of an election. The big thing though is that wasn't John McCain. The real John McCain reached across party lines, didn't believe in swiftboating, and almost even jumped ship to the Democrats in 2000. At the end, Fox News reports that he was hardly even on speaking terms with Palin. It wasn't him. The problem here is all that BS, the "who is Barack Obama" mumbo-jumbo was all pure political rhetoric. The problem is, it appears, is that you guys are still believing all that crap. "If we would learn what the human race really is at bottom, we need only observe it in election times" - Mark Twain.

Basically I'm saying buck up and start looking positive. I'm agreeing with the first post. He is your man, like it or not, for the next 4 possibly/odds usually favor 8 years. So no reason to gripe, it doesn't help anything...

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

> . Intelligence that EVERYONE believed said: WMD's.

That's actually not true at all... For example, the reason we "hate" France is because they were right the whole time, there were no WMD. The intigence was extremely shaky (and basically invented). This is also why we went at the war by ourselves. It was so shakey that we basically went at it alone. It's true that Saddam was a douche... But so are 20-gazillion other countries including some that might actually pose a threat. For example North Korea or Iran. Imagine attempting to fight three wars now, would it be possible? Also what is F'd up is that the CIA under the Reagan Administration actually put Saddam Hussein in power, what is affectively referred to as blowback.

Also interesting is in 1954 we effectively helped over-throw the most democratic regieme in Iranian history because the new regeime was also "friendly." And finally in 1987 we fought a secret was to aid the Afghanis against the Soviets (the movie Charlie Wilson's War is about it) and at that time period we were basically heroes in Afghanistan. But we basically were all swing and no follow-through so the tides quickly turned. I forget where Bin Laden is from (I believe Saudi Arabia). He had been kicked out of a half dozen countries because of his activities and finally found haven in Afghanistan. He took advantage of a small rising fascist minority (a lot like say the KKK or skin heads here) that were willing to be militant and even give their lives to their cause. They effectively became the Taliban and even eventually took over the country. "Out of chaos there is opportunity." you guys have to realize that 9-11 was a real shocker to even people over there. In general Islamics practice peace, Muhammed was a lot like *****. Islamic Fascism does not appeals to well over 99%. So in a sense we are fighting a war against less than 1% of them. After 9-11 we had a real opportunity to nip this in the bud for these reasons but instead we "had 2000 mistakes we could have made while fighting this war. I just didn't realize we would actually make all 2000 of them." - Dick Armitage 13th United States Deputy Secretary of State, the second-in-command at the State Department, serving from 2001 to 2005.

So interestingly, we are fighting and have fought several wars now directly related to our actions from earlier periods. The term for this is called "blowback."

 

[Tacoma]

I meant that all the Democrats bitching about it now, voted for it then. That's all.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I meant that all the Democrats bitching about it now, voted for it then. That's all.

Not all but the majority of them:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&vote=00237&session=2

Had it been a party vote, we would not be in Iraq. 29 Dems made up the 77 vote win.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Ya they voted for the war before they voted against the war
J/K

There were a lot of mistakes made but I don’t feel our most pressing problems in this country is the war I think it is our values and the apparent lack of self responsibility and our willingness to want to bail everyone out.

It is the fast food companies making me fat
The mortgage company forced me to buy that 500K house instead of the 200K
The car companies made me buy brand new cars every year
I can’t afford health care but I drive 2 brand new vehicles live in a 5000 SQ Ft house
And so on

 

[rondo]

LT, thank you and i wholeheartedly agree with you.
GIJohn, i've known you since 02 and you are great american.
My message to those who ***** about America, go somewhere else to see what it's like. I've been to a lot of other countries and NO PLACE is as great as this nation! Period.