Posing a question about Land Use...

[e28bimmer]

Very sweet, there is no bad publicity... But the Herald one isnt an organized U4wda member, is it?
And these projects are great, dont get me wrong. They help out, but... I still think there could be more done, I mean, what would it take to get a front page article in the Trib, and TV coverage of "U4WDA marches on Capitol in protest of Closures".

Consider this, and Ive brought it up before, but most of these roads and trails are a result of mining operations and ghost towns (even 5 mile pass). So, with a GRE angle in on it, it could be spun as "Offroad activists march on Capitol hill to help save historic sites and trails"

Sounds a little cleaner?? A little more broad appeal?

Id be interested in seeing what we can do to help out the cause here because I think that our two goals are integrally linked. Kurt, Steve, LMK the particulars and we'll be at your next meeting with a donation. But I still hold that $$ is not the answer, its a tool, but not the end answer.

Any other ideas out there?

250 at the Summer Convention, 300 NPLD

Desert News

Trib

Herald

And At your Leisure should run there footage next week.



All of this being said, I am with you. The reason I got involved with U4 (I started going to the BOA meeting in May) was to use my talents to help get the marketing and public image consistent and seen. I won't get in to particulars here. But there are opportunities for U4 and I have explored a few this month.

We (the 4x4 community) are out numbered by casual donations from the suwa side. They have done a great job in painting all ohv users as bad. It is much easier to show damage then to argue responsible use. We need to work on that marketing message for sure. But my bet still stands. Apathy is rampant with ohv users, or maybe it is ignorance, either way we have an uphill battle on the marketing side.

 

[Seth]

Very sweet, there is no bad publicity... But the Herald one isnt an organized U4wda member, is it?

No. U4 works closely with all land use groups. Funds from U4 go to BRC, USA-All etc. Just another avenue for exposure.

"Offroad activists march on Capitol hill to help save historic sites and trails"

Sounds a little cleaner?? A little more broad appeal?

Hell ya it does. I like the angle. I would say we need to stay positive with the message. If we come off as whining and that certainly is not a powerful position.

I understand that you don't think money is the answer, but in any business cash flow is king. If you don't have funds you can't produce marketing materials to keep people excited about what you are doing. It is a key ingredient in my mind.

I am excited to see that some have taken up on my challenge. Make me $100 poorer! Come on!

 

[Brett]

I am excited to see that some have taken up on my challenge. Make me $100 poorer! Come on!

Does it count if I donate again?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Sounds a little cleaner?? A little more broad appeal?

Id be interested in seeing what we can do to help out the cause here because I think that our two goals are integrally linked. Kurt, Steve, LMK the particulars and we'll be at your next meeting with a donation. But I still hold that $$ is not the answer, its a tool, but not the end answer.

Any other ideas out there?

I love the idea of combining forces for a rally, lets do it! The next BOD meeting is Thurs (10/26), 6:30... LHM Jeep in Sandy. Let me know if you can make it on short notice... if so I will set some time aside on our agenda to talk about all this.

In addition Seth reminded me that we really need to get working on and updating our 2007 goals, hopefully we will have time for that too!

 

[Kris K]

! The next BOD meeting is Thurs (10/26), 6:30... LHM Jeep in Sandy.

Is this meeting closed door or are others able to come?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Is this meeting closed door or are others able to come?

Always open... anyone is welcome.
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=23035

However, if you have something you would like to present, chat about, etc (more than a couple minutes), please let me know ahead of time and I will get you on the agenda. Thanks!

 

[Kris K]

I was probably going to be in the area thur, just kind of want to watch see how things work.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I was probably going to be in the area thur, just kind of want to watch see how things work.

Come on out!

 

[e28bimmer]

Count us in, we'll be there (as long as they dont throw our Rovers off the Jeep lot ) Looking forward to it!!

 

[scoutabout]

So, with a GRE angle in on it, it could be spun as "Offroad activists march on Capitol hill to help save historic sites and trails"

Luvin' it.

Id be interested in seeing what we can do to help out the cause here because I think that our two goals are integrally linked.

I've always agreed. I think we could find several other hobby groups dependant on off-pavement travel to join forces with.

But I still hold that $$ is not the answer, its a tool, but not the end answer.

With 100 million bucks, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. We'd be talking about where we're going exploring/wheeling. Our lawyers would have everything covered.

We've already proven that our market is too small (and unfortunately sometimes too apathetic) to support such legal action with individual donations.

Therefore, I agree that membership, volunteer projects, and home grown publicity are more attainable given our current restraints.

It'll be nice to see some new (and old) faces at the upcoming meeting.

 

[metalry101]

Rallies might peak the interest of the general public for a day or so. Where we loose is in the courts. The courts take lawyers, and the lawyers take $$$.

I will bet that apathy will win the day on this thread. I will put my money where my mouth is. The U4WDA BOA meeting is Thursday the 26th. If 10 people donate $10 to U4 by the meeting and Note thread #37755, I will give U4 $100.

It starts right here. If the folks that are interested enough in off-roading to spend there time on a forum won't pony up who will. Come on prove me wrong! please.

Here is the link to donate

Just sent $15.

 

[WayneXJ]

$25 sent.

 

[metalry101]

Well...no one else has said it so I will...

Why are we so ignorant about the number of people who break the laws and get us in these predicaments in the first place? Anyone who actually believes that the vast majority of off-road enthusiasts don't break the laws is either living in la-la land, or is in denial. I won't go so far as to say most people break the laws...but a large percentage of people in our sport have broken the laws by making new trails, littering, making new bypasses, making campfires where they're prohibited, and just generally doing moronic things because they're "fun" and because "it's public land so I own it too."

We need to put an end to this prehistoric way of thinking and welcome people to the 21st century, using massive fines, vehicle impounds, and good old fashioned ass whoopings if necessary (note slight, but only slight, sarcasm). The FS and BLM wouldn't get nearly as many complaints from hippy environmentalists if we'd just obey the damn laws. We don't though, and even worse, we condone the actions of others by not taking a HARD line and calling out those who do break the laws. Call me an asshole if you like, but I'll let a wheeling buddy know in a not so polite sort of way if he's breaking the law and doing stupid things. What good is a wheeling buddy if his actions get your wheeling spots closed? Some people are going to complain no matter what we do, but if we'd just obey the laws that are in place, we could get rid of most of the complaints. Then, instead of having to act like peacemakers and begging for lands to stay open, we could be seen as the common sense side of the argument. We could make the environmentalists look like a bunch of ultra-radical tree-hugging hippies. The general public doesn't like extremists...so why do we position ourselves in an extremist position and let the environmentalists take the middle ground? WE ARE the middle ground, but we're not seen as such...we need to fix that problem, and from what I can see, the way to do that is to stop causing the problems that the environmentalists complain about (legitimately) and that the FS and BLM can't ignore. Right now we're the like a whiny little kid calling for the same treat his brother got even though his brother behaved and he didn't. So far the government has granted us our treats, but we can't continue to break the laws that they set forth and expect them to reward us for it. We need to become the well-behaved group and in turn we'll either expose the environmentalists as whiny extremist bastards, or they'll see that we have similiar goals (maintaining the land for a variety of uses for now, and for current generations), and they'll join us in our efforts. Either way, we win.

We need to worry less about what the environmentalists and government are doing to close our trails and worry more about why they're trying to close them in the first place. WHY things happen is what matters. Fix the "why" of what's happening and in time, the "what" will follow suit. It's naive to believe that doing this will get the environmentalists off our backs, but it very well could help us sway some of the non-extremists, and it would certainly cast us in a much more positive light amongst the people in the middle of the two extremes, including the FS and BLM.

I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone but me...but basically...

I really like Corey's idea of being aggressive, but I don't see us as having the ability to be aggressive towards environmentalists or the government at the moment because WE'RE THE PROBLEM. We need to stop denying that it's us and start fixing the problem. Once we do that, we'll have the footing we need to be aggressive towards the people and groups that aim to take away our priveleges, but for the time being, we need to stop abusing those priveleges like they're rights, and start treating them like the priveleges that they are. We can't continue to live in the wrong, or even in the prescence of wrong, and ask for the priveleges of the "right."

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Hmmm, not sure I disagree with all of your comments, but I do disagree to some extent.

Many, many, many historic trail closures have occured NOT because laws were broken, rather because greenie groups sued to the BLM to protect the land, etc. They cite endangered species, damage to resources, pollution, etc... but its not always to do illegal activities. Take Factory Butte for example, the trails closed were not illegal prior, in fact the area was heavily patrolled. They were closed because greenie groups want to shut out our "noisy, stinky, damaging" sports...

The historic trails in Big Cottonwood Canyon are another example, they were not closed due to vandalism, illegal acts, etc... rather resource damage concerns and private interests. SUWA, SOC, etc.

Now, surely there are trails that were closed due to damage, essentially vandalism, illegal activities, etc... and it doesn't do our "image" any good either. But with the exception of calling people out on a forum, or referring some pictures to a LEO (which local forums seem to be good at )... how do you propose we go about doing this. I can see a huge education campaign paying off... but then again I can't see where the funding for such a project would come from.

Regardless of how you look at it, this sport has an impact on the earth.. its debateable if the impact is even significant.. but until we "leave only footprints", groups like SUWA won't stop fighting to shut us out. Illegal acts or not... I'm not saying SUWA et al won't cite illegal acts as another reason to shut out access, but its not the most efficient route for them to take.

I spend alot of time in the back-country, and I truly think that 95% of folks I encounter are completely law abiding... and if/when they do break the law, its usually because they don't know better. Education is huge, but once again takes alot of money. Now, no pun to local hangouts... but you are much more likely to stumble across a group breaking the law in say AF Canyon, Little Moab or 5MP, just because it is so close to the mass population of SLC and inviting for those that don't "get out much." Ironically those places havn't been a major target for enviro groups... yet.

While I think education and enforcement are vital aspects to keeping public land open to OHV use, I definately don't think they are the only aspects... history has proven that.

Still, as I have stated time and time again... if somebody has a plan of action that they would love to get rolling (with him/her at the helm). Write up an action plan, bring it to a U4 BOD meeting and we will do our best to help make it a reality (human & financial resources). "In the meantime" as Steve J. would say... "this is purely academic"

 

[1993yj]

metalry101: It is going to be hard to win a battle with another group if everyone in our group thinks that we are the problem. If we are fighting with ourselves there is no way we can be effective against other groups. Even if every single OHV user in America was 100% law abiding, groups like SUWA and others would still be fighting just as hard to shut down our trails. I am in complete agreeance with Kurt about most people being law abiding, with the exception of a slight few. Maybe they get us into a few predicaments, but they are not the majority of the reason our trails are under attack. I am not saying that we dont need to do anyhting about that aspect, but we also dont need to go and make enemies with people who are on our side. We need all the help we can get, and if I made a mistake, something I was unaware of even, and a group of people "using massive fines, vehicle impounds, and good old fashioned ass whoopings if necessary", confronted me about it in that way, it wouldnt educate me and turn me over to their cause, rather, it would just make me resent them and everything about them.

 

[Seth]

It comes back to marketing and perception being the truth. Large amounts of money allow you to paint your opponents image for them. This is where political races are won and lost. And we face the same issues. The 4x4 community has been painted by their brush, not by your fellow wheeler. It is truly amazing what a good job our opponents have done at painting ohv users into a corner. Logic is on our side. But it is obscured by money and influence. We don't have the funding so we must maximize our strengths and play to their weaknesses.

Don't fall into the trap of believing what "they" say about you and your friends. Get educated about the issues and pass that on. If we sit here and debate the issue as "they" have framed it we loose.

AND DONATE! I CHALLENGED YOU! YES YOU, WHO SITS THERE PASSIVELY READING THIS THREAD! Make me fork out another c-note this thursday!

 

[metalry101]

It comes back to marketing and perception being the truth. Large amounts of money allow you to paint your opponents image for them. This is where political races are won and lost. And we face the same issues. The 4x4 community has been painted by their brush, not by your fellow wheeler. It is truly amazing what a good job our opponents have done at painting ohv users into a corner. Logic is on our side. But it is obscured by money and influence. We don't have the funding so we must maximize our strengths and play to their weaknesses.

Don't fall into the trap of believing what "they" say about you and your friends. Get educated about the issues and pass that on. If we sit here and debate the issue as "they" have framed it we loose.

I don't need "them" to tell me about me and my friends. I've seen it dozens of times with my own eyes.

The problem is that while I don't think they're right when it comes to 4x4 drivers, when it comes to ATVers , I think they're dead on.

 

[e28bimmer]

Hey, California and some spots back East have a model similar to what you suggest, most of thier offroading goes on in specialized parks that you pay to get in, trails are few and far between. There is nothing left like what we have in Utah, a few "ghost towns" that are manned 24hrs and will charge you for everything from gas to doughnuts. Pretty rugged eh? and even better, they have those big fines that think are such a great idea.. And they have eliminated most all unregulated 4wd-ing. Maybe we could get the government to mandate that all vehicles with 4wd have a GPS locator on them, that way if you venture off a trail, or into a restricted area, they can just mail you a ticket, or even better, disable your vehicle onsite, come out and impound it too. This is a great idea? I disagree. Why do people rush into regulate the **** out of everything instead of allowing the "Freedom" on which the country is supposedly based, to prevail? Will some people go off trails? yeah, Im sure they will but do we regulate 100,000 people and take away their rights to stop 2 or 3 offenders? I think thats a bad model for America, let alone the offroad community.. but thats just me.

I don't need "them" to tell me about me and my friends. I've seen it dozens of times with my own eyes.

The problem is that while I don't think they're right when it comes to 4x4 drivers, when it comes to ATVers , I think they're dead on.

 

[metalry101]

Many, many, many historic trail closures have occured NOT because laws were broken, rather because greenie groups sued to the BLM to protect the land, etc. They cite endangered species, damage to resources, pollution, etc... but its not always to do illegal activities. Take Factory Butte for example, the trails closed were not illegal prior, in fact the area was heavily patrolled. They were closed because greenie groups want to shut out our "noisy, stinky, damaging" sports...

The historic trails in Big Cottonwood Canyon are another example, they were not closed due to vandalism, illegal acts, etc... rather resource damage concerns and private interests. SUWA, SOC, etc.

Sometimes closing a trail is probably the right thing to do in order to preserve the land. Our problem is that we can't really give wilderness groups an inch because they'll end with a mile. The good thing is that the government isn't really any fonder of the extreme environmentalists than they are of the people who think we should have access to everything.

Now, surely there are trails that were closed due to damage, essentially vandalism, illegal activities, etc... and it doesn't do our "image" any good either. But with the exception of calling people out on a forum, or referring some pictures to a LEO (which local forums seem to be good at )... how do you propose we go about doing this. I can see a huge education campaign paying off... but then again I can't see where the funding for such a project would come from.

It couldn't be funded, and even if it could, I don't know that it would help...it's just gotta be a grassroots effort. We have to do it ourselves, and we can't just lead by example and call it enough. That hasn't worked in the past. When we see people breaking the law we need to inform them of it and the potential consequences of their actions, not just shrug our shoulders and move on.

Regardless of how you look at it, this sport has an impact on the earth.. its debateable if the impact is even significant.. but until we "leave only footprints", groups like SUWA won't stop fighting to shut us out. Illegal acts or not... I'm not saying SUWA et al won't cite illegal acts as another reason to shut out access, but its not the most efficient route for them to take.

I don't really think the significance is debateable personally but I suppose it depends on how you look at it. In terms of the overall health of the environment I would agree that it's not that significant. In terms of asthetics...trails running all over a mountainside are ugly as sin IMO. In terms of wildlife management, lots of vehicle usage in a certain area will generally push wildlife deeper into the woods...not necessarily a bad thing...but we are effectively shrinking their habitat even more than civilization's outward push already has.

I spend alot of time in the back-country, and I truly think that 95% of folks I encounter are completely law abiding... and if/when they do break the law, its usually because they don't know better. Education is huge, but once again takes alot of money. Now, no pun to local hangouts... but you are much more likely to stumble across a group breaking the law in say AF Canyon, Little Moab or 5MP, just because it is so close to the mass population of SLC and inviting for those that don't "get out much." Ironically those places havn't been a major target for enviro groups... yet.

I guess it depends where you go and what people you deal with. I think ATV users are generally more harmful than 4x4 enthusiasts. I agree 100% with the comment about local places having more problems than remote places, and I agree with your reason why too. The farther into the backcountry you get, the farther you get from the problem since people that hardcore into it generally have a lot better sense of what is appropriate in the great outdoors.

While I think education and enforcement are vital aspects to keeping public land open to OHV use, I definately don't think they are the only aspects... history has proven that.

Still, as I have stated time and time again... if somebody has a plan of action that they would love to get rolling (with him/her at the helm). Write up an action plan, bring it to a U4 BOD meeting and we will do our best to help make it a reality (human & financial resources). "In the meantime" as Steve J. would say... "this is purely academic"

I agree that they're not the only things...but I do think they're important because they need to happen at the areas close to the cities. I say this because that's where the majority of the public experiences the outdoors (if they experience them at all), so what they see there defines what they think all the outdoors is like, and if they see some jackass in a Jeep or on a quad riding through a field tearing stuff up, or see trash every 30 feet along the trail, they're probably going to leave with the impression that everywhere 4x4's go looks like that, even if it's not true. That's how we get our bad image from the general public. Sure, SUWA and their propoganda hurts us, but I give the general public a little bit of credit...how many people believe the things extremist groups have to say? Most people will listen to what they have to say...but they'll take it with a grain of salt...the comments hurt us, but not by themselves. Those comments hurt us when people who aren't on either side go spend time outdoors. They see the trash, they see people doing stupid things on ATV's or in Jeeps, and they get the impression that all the outdoors are like that, and then next time they read about us fighting SUWA in the paper and they read SUWA's inflamatory statements about destruction of property and closing the road as being "good for the environment" those statements sound a bit less inflamatory and a lot more like the truth. It's losing the support of those kinds of people that is going to kill us in the end. We need to turn that around. There are always going to be idiots who do what they want and get away with it, despite our best efforts, but if we can minimize that, we can help improve our image within the general public and begin to turn the tables on SUWA and the like.

 

[Seth]

I don't need "them" to tell me about me and my friends. I've seen it dozens of times with my own eyes.

The problem is that while I don't think they're right when it comes to 4x4 drivers, when it comes to ATVers , I think they're dead on.

I wasn't speaking to you in particular. I was speaking in general terms, to the vast majority of people that will read this thread.