Posing a question about Land Use...

[metalry101]

Hey, California and some spots back East have a model similar to what you suggest, most of thier offroading goes on in specialized parks that you pay to get in, trails are few and far between. There is nothing left like what we have in Utah, a few "ghost towns" that are manned 24hrs and will charge you for everything from gas to doughnuts. Pretty rugged eh? and even better, they have those big fines that think are such a great idea.. And they have eliminated most all unregulated 4wd-ing. Maybe we could get the government to mandate that all vehicles with 4wd have a GPS locator on them, that way if you venture off a trail, or into a restricted area, they can just mail you a ticket, or even better, disable your vehicle onsite, come out and impound it too. This is a great idea? I disagree. Why do people rush into regulate the **** out of everything instead of allowing the "Freedom" on which the country is supposedly based, to prevail? Will some people go off trails? yeah, Im sure they will but do we regulate 100,000 people and take away their rights to stop 2 or 3 offenders? I think thats a bad model for America, let alone the offroad community.. but thats just me.

I was exaggerating to get the point across, and obviously it worked. Freedom is based on the assumption that people will be considerate of not only one another, but of all the other living things in the environment. I don't assume that people will do the right thing. Maybe they just don't care. Maybe they don't know what the right thing is. It doesn't matter the reason. What matters are the consequences.

Why, in the time of our most serious opposition do you want to ask for more rope for us to hang ourselves from? I don't like regulations any more than you do, but the fact is that people need to be regulated. By your logic, we shouldn't have bag limits for hunters, or catch limits for fisherman. People will just take what they need. Ya...all you've gotta do is look at the great plains. Where did all the buffalo go? No regulation sure worked there...a couple hundred thousand buffalo knocked down to a few thousand or so in what, 20 years? If people aren't regulated and educated they won't do the right thing. You have to tell people what the "right" thing is, because otherwise they're just going to do whatever it is they want to do, and that's how we got in trouble in the first place. We need to get away from the old-school thinking of deregulation. It didn't work back when the majority of society had a clear sense of right and wrong, when American society was only 100 million strong...why do you think it's going to work now that we have 300 million people and a rapidly erroding set of morals?

 

[reddevil]

metalry101, if you are saying that we should educate those in the sport that go out and run off the trails I would say I'm right there with you.
I do think there is a right and wrong way to do this though. You can't run around telling people they are idiots and have them think you are a smart guy that they should listen to. I was in a group down on PSM a while back. We got to The Wedgy and there was a group that was having a hard time getting all there jeeps through it, so we just took the bypass (painted on the rock, and mentioned in the guide book.) Well so do gooder in that group yelled at us to stay on the trail. We were on the trail and we just shook our heads and yelled back that we where on the trail. His heart was in the right place but his information about the trail and his attitude was not.
I think it is very important to teach those that are blazing trails and tossing trash a better way to be, but the hell fire needs to be saved for the idiots that drive up a steam and over trees and post it on utube.
It's easier to teach your friends, so lets make friends with those we come across on the trails. (Even the greenies.)

 

[Seth]

Why, in the time of our most serious opposition do you want to ask for more rope for us to hang ourselves from? I don't like regulations any more than you do, but the fact is that people need to be regulated.

The regulations are coming, don't worry about that. Arguing about tickets and punishment is pointless because we have no control of that. What we do have control of is our own behavior.

I think we are arguing slightly different angles of the same issue.

Come to the meeting and voice your concerns. We are all just folks that want to help out. And your help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[metalry101]

metalry101, if you are saying that we should educate those in the sport that go out and run off the trails I would say I'm right there with you.
I do think there is a right and wrong way to do this though. You can't run around telling people they are idiots and have them think you are a smart guy that they should listen to. I was in a group down on PSM a while back. We got to The Wedgy and there was a group that was having a hard time getting all there jeeps through it, so we just took the bypass (painted on the rock, and mentioned in the guide book.) Well so do gooder in that group yelled at us to stay on the trail. We were on the trail and we just shook our heads and yelled back that we where on the trail. His heart was in the right place but his information about the trail and his attitude was not.
I think it is very important to teach those that are blazing trails and tossing trash a better way to be, but the hell fire needs to be saved for the idiots that drive up a steam and over trees and post it on utube.
It's easier to teach your friends, so lets make friends with those we come across on the trails. (Even the greenies.)

LOL...I do come across as the hellfire and damnation type (my own doing I know)...but in fact, I do agree 100% with what you're saying.

 

[metalry101]

Come to the meeting and voice your concerns. We are all just folks that want to help out. And your help will be greatly appreciated.

I don't get off work until about 8:30 or 9 on Thursdays, so it's hard for me to make the meetings. I will do my best to make it to the future meetings, though it might not happen until next year. With Christmas season upon us, it will very, very hard for me to get any time off work at all for the next couple of months, but I will see what I can manage because I would like to help in any way that I can.

 

[e28bimmer]

What Im saying is that offroad regulation is not needed. I think most will agree that when you get out into the back country there is never a cop to be found.. people can drive where ever and however they want, legal or not, and there are very few that do... so the regulation is just another waste of time and money. Maybe they will be able to catch one guy doing something questionable, he will get a ticket, fight it in court and end up with a $50 fine. In the meantime, passing that regulation makes it look like there is a huge problem that needs to be addressed when there really isnt.

Do I think we should limit hunters or fishers, no not really... also a waste of time IMHO, how many hunters and fishers are out there that are intent on cleaning out the rivers or the mountain....? none, if any and the ones hunting out there dont want thier areas depleated so they are careful about what they shoot and the same is with the fishermen. but I also dont think we should regulate speed limits on the freeways.

The buffalo arguement is dumb, sorry, but the army and trappers were paid to kill as many buffalo as possible to deplete the Indians food and resources.

Your arguement is really very un-American, bordering totalitarianism. The idea of Freedom or at least what it was, is that people didnt want to be regulated, they wanted "Freedom of Choice". By your comments we regress to where we started before America. Suppose Congress determines tomorrow that Mormonism is bad for the economy and bans it, theres more regulation... people need to be told what is right??
It may seem like a stretch but when you actively look to the government to control your every action, your not far from that scenario.

Just my opinion...

I was exaggerating to get the point across, and obviously it worked. Freedom is based on the assumption that people will be considerate of not only one another, but of all the other living things in the environment. I don't assume that people will do the right thing. Maybe they just don't care. Maybe they don't know what the right thing is. It doesn't matter the reason. What matters are the consequences.

Why, in the time of our most serious opposition do you want to ask for more rope for us to hang ourselves from? I don't like regulations any more than you do, but the fact is that people need to be regulated. By your logic, we shouldn't have bag limits for hunters, or catch limits for fisherman. People will just take what they need. Ya...all you've gotta do is look at the great plains. Where did all the buffalo go? No regulation sure worked there...a couple hundred thousand buffalo knocked down to a few thousand or so in what, 20 years? If people aren't regulated and educated they won't do the right thing. You have to tell people what the "right" thing is, because otherwise they're just going to do whatever it is they want to do, and that's how we got in trouble in the first place. We need to get away from the old-school thinking of deregulation. It didn't work back when the majority of society had a clear sense of right and wrong, when American society was only 100 million strong...why do you think it's going to work now that we have 300 million people and a rapidly erroding set of morals?

 

[metalry101]

Your arguement is really very un-American, bordering totalitarianism. The idea of Freedom or at least what it was, is that people didnt want to be regulated, they wanted "Freedom of Choice". By your comments we regress to where we started before America. Suppose Congress determines tomorrow that Mormonism is bad for the economy and bans it, theres more regulation... people need to be told what is right??
It may seem like a stretch but when you actively look to the government to control your every action, your not far from that scenario.

Just my opinion...

My argument is about as close to totalitarianism as your is anarchism. I'm not saying that the government has to regulate everything, but we do need laws. People don't need every decision made for them...that's ridiculous, and I never suggested ANYTHING like that. That's just your imagination extrapolating my comments into areas I never brought up in any way, shape, or form. Don't put words in my mouth like that.

People need general laws, even if they're used more as guidelines than a rigid rule, people need guidance. These laws need to be decided upon for scientific reasons, by looking at how our usage affects the environment and the wildlife that call it home...and not just now...but how it will affect it for generations to come. Regulations need to be in place to ensure a predictable future. Being able to anticipate future needs helps the FS and BLM accomodate current needs, and manage the public lands, the roads, the resources within the lands, the wildlife, and the public access to these lands as best they currently know how to do. Without regulations, they'll be forced to react to what happens instead of predicting it and making it happen. That reduces their ability to manage the land and resources in an effective and efficient manner. We as off-road enthusiasts should all understand that very well since we're on the "reacting" (and therefore, generally losing) end of the argument over land use right now.

The notion that all off-high travel be unregulated is self-serving, short sighted, naive, and childish as far as I'm concerned. I don't know that we need further regulation...I'm not that familiar with the regulation that's in place now...but I am saying that we need to enforce the regulations that are in place, both officially by handing out tickets to violaters, and more importantly (and quite possibly more effectively) by letting fellow enthusiasts know that their unlawful actions are not going to be tolerated not only by rangers and cops, but also by us, their friends.

 

[Brett]

10/25/06 UTAH 4 WHEEL DRIVE ASSOC W. BOUNTIFUL $10.00


Just thought I would post that from my bank account

 

[Seth]

Thanks Brett.

I am watching closely. And am excited to see 4 people so far donate. PM your friends, let everyone know. All I want to see is 6 more people pony up. Guy's it's 10 bucks. And I am forking over 100. Its easy! Do it! I shouldn't need to beg, Hell, I spent $8 on lunch! Certainly you can eat a pb&j tomorrow to make up the difference! DO IT!!!!! One more day!!! DO IT!

 

[1993yj]

Just joined online, but there was no where to put a reference to this thread. Anyhow, $20 in case we only get 9 people to donate out of this thread, so that nanoman will still have to put his money where his mouth is.

B. Andersen

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...It couldn't be funded, and even if it could, I don't know that it would help...it's just gotta be a grassroots effort. We have to do it ourselves, and we can't just lead by example and call it enough. That hasn't worked in the past. When we see people breaking the law we need to inform them of it and the potential consequences of their actions, not just shrug our shoulders and move on.

I've never "shrugged" by shoulders and moved on.. and I don't think the majority of other informed users do either. Sounds like you need to be more pro-active with your freinds?

I've done trail patrol, I've done service projects, I've done seminars... all ranging from grassroots to highly funded and organized. I don't want to come across rude but what/where/when have you taken part in any of these things you speak of? It looks great on a forum, but its out on the trail that matters.

And on top of it all, I still don't see the perceived abuse that you obviously see out of OHV users. Yes I truly feel that the ATV crowd is worse in some cases, but the 4x4 crowd is bad in others (ie: Moab vs. AFC). And beleive me I am one to note illegal and irresponsible behavior... those that have been on a trail with me have probably seen my admittingly overboard behavior at times. I've tried to mellow out and turn it more into an education than anything. But truthfully, I don't see the problem you see and I'm not here to brag... but I can guarantee I've spent more time wheeling in Utah in the last couple years.

And one more note... alot of that bad apple 5% has little or nothing to do with the organized 4x4 community. In fact getting the "message" to them is likely impossible. They aren't into wheeling, they arn't into forums... they rent a Jeep in Moab, or they borrow their buddies wheelers up AF, mabey they are high schoolers in dads truck rallying up Corner Canyon... regardless they don't want to hear the "message"

 

[cruiseroutfit]

One last thing before I get back to my honey-do's... I'd be willing to bet that each and everyone of us spent an hour, a day, or even a couple years as part of that 5% bad apple group. I know I did, and it wasn't out of dis-regard or vengence... it was my complete lack of education. I think about that everytime I see a similar situation.

Now, if I had encountered someone from say U4WDA, Usa-All or even the FS on the trail when I was in the wrong... and that person beat up on me about my actions... would I be where I am today donating hundreds of hours a year to U4WDA... probably not??

Education... and without money, grassroots or not, its not gonna happen in the fashion and form it needs to IMHO.

 

[Brett]

I'll agree that I've been part of that group. Moving on though.


Here's the thing......honestly, and this is not an exageration....Almost 90% of the tracks that I see off trail in southern Utah are from quads and motorcycles. I have honestly never seen a track from a set of MT/R's, BFG's, anything of those types off the trail as much as I have seen quads. Just two weeks ago on Hole in the Rock, I saw more quad tracks off the trail that I've seen in five plus years!

I guess I am just saying that I don't think that its primiarily 4x4's that do it...

 

[e28bimmer]

guess I need to get out more to see all of this blatent destruction...

 

[reddevil]

guess I need to get out more to see all of this blatent destruction...

Or look in your rearview mirror.... I kid.

 

[scoutabout]

ATV damage is EVERYWHERE, but sometimes you have to know what to look for to see the evidence. AF Canyon has dozens of illegal ATV trails, and more being created weekly. I agree that ATV's and motorcycles are causing much more damage than 4x4's. They can fit into smaller places.

 

[Greg]

Careful with the blanket statements. I'm going to stand up for the ATV's & motorcycles, since I own one form of 'em. There as many ATV & motorcycle riders who are active in the effort to preserve the same areas we're trying to save. They are just as aware of the TREAD Lightly program, promote responsible use in the approiate areas & are fighting SUWA... as we are. I know you guys arean't saying every person on a ATV is contributing to tearing up the trails & making new ones, but we need to be careful & not burn bridges with the guys & gals that are trying to fight along side us.

 

[e28bimmer]

nice!!!!

Or look in your rearview mirror.... I kid.

 

[DOSS]

Thanks Brett.

I am watching closely. And am excited to see 4 people so far donate. PM your friends, let everyone know. All I want to see is 6 more people pony up. Guy's it's 10 bucks. And I am forking over 100. Its easy! Do it! I shouldn't need to beg, Hell, I spent $8 on lunch! Certainly you can eat a pb&j tomorrow to make up the difference! DO IT!!!!! One more day!!! DO IT!

So... are you out your $100 or did we fail to get 10 people to pony up $10 bucks?

 

[Seth]

We didn't get 10 people, but I think the $ total was around $100. $95 maybe, Russ and Daynene were going to check. I will be giving the $'s to U4 next meeting anyway. It is a worthy cause and they need everyones support. I wanted to get the bystanders involved. Thanks to everyone who donated. And thanks to all the new faces that came out to the meeting.