Protests

[Hickey]

When we use our recreation property north of Fairview, we often venture down to Fairview and even Mt. Pleasant for ice, fuel, and supplies. Those ventures are a treat. So different from the big cities. So enjoyable.

 

[Houndoc]

. I don't know if the cop that killed Floyd is a murder or just a guy that let his emotions get the best of him. All professions have them. I'm sure you know a bad veterinarian. Does that make you a bad vet? Should we stop the continuing education of vets or maybe even bump it up so he becomes better?

A couple interesting points in there. For anyone but a police officer "murder" and "a guy that let his emotions get the best of him" is the same thing if it results in a death. In previous cases of police shootings, the split-second decision argument held some weight. Obviously not the case here, and again very concerning that 3 other officers silently watched it happen.

And as to my profession, I serve on the state licensing board, so have to deal with the bad aspects of our profession and at times it is very frustrating that we can not fully pull someone's license, especially ones with repeated minor complaints against them. But as a board, out state-mandated role is to protect the public, not the veterinarians and there is a very firm line drawn between the board and our state veterinary association whose focus is on the vets.

One of the areas that can get a veterinarian in the most trouble is falsifying records. Covering up a mistake with false documents quickly puts a license on the line. I wish we saw that level of accountability in law enforcement. One of the disturbing areas to me is how often an initial police report of a questionable incident is shown to be false by video evidence. A very simple reform would be to hold police to the same level civilians are for filing a false report.

The founders of Black Lives Matter are self described Marxists.

I know that. But that does not change the fact that, as I stated earlier, there is common ground if we look for it. One of the biggest problems I see with government and even society as a whole is the idea that unless someone is 100% on 'our side' then we can not work with them to solve problems.

A real effort by moderates and conservatives to address the issues in policing would go along ways to ending the unrest, and actually improving society. Other issues pushed by the extremists then have to face the legislative process like any other views.

 

[Houndoc]

Killing of kids? Really? no cop wants to kill a damn kid. But you buy your kid a life like toy gun or allow them to modify it to look like one be ready to accept the consequences.

So a kid playing legally is just 'accepting the consequences' if they are killed by a cop? I hope no one really believes that to be true.

In the case of Tamir Rice, arrival to shooting, happened in a reported 2 seconds. It is not unreasonable to expect officers to take time to asses a situation fully before utilizing deadly force. If we don't hold to even that basic standard than anyone who legally carries a gun is simply "accepting the consequences" if they are shot and killed to a legal and constitutionally protected act.

 

[mbryson]

CT is in a tailspin.

Politics and taxes are terrible.

Major industry has left. Colt, GE, insurance companies (Hartford was the "insurance Capitol of the world"), StanleyWorks, aerospace, and the list goes on have left to the south and many manufacturers to China.

The blue collar town I went to high-school has the highest property tax rate in the state, higher than Fairfield or Greenwich where the Disney C-level folks and the Martha Stewarts and Lettermans of the world live.

When I see our taxes go up here, I can't help but think that it's in part to the outside influences.

BUT - they aren't all bad. Some of the hardest workers I have ever known came from the Northeast.

I'd be curious to know a "fix". I know states/counties/cities need to become a little more business friendly (any kind of revenue brings taxes which breeds civic improvements which breeds new revenue sources---the opposite of that is prohibitive laws that aren't business friendly bring shuttering of businesses thereby decreasing tax bases which leads to more urban decay). Is the problem more of a "mindset" issue or just more of a political "rules" issue? I'm with you on hard working easterners. Some of the more enjoyable folks I've worked with are from the East Coast from "blue collar" backgrounds. Some of the most entitled and biggest knuckleheads I've worked with are also from the East Coast. In my experience, it's pretty polar. You're either a hard worker/grinder type that I have trouble keeping up with or a whiny complaining type that can't get past the politics to do any work. (I'm sure there's some middle ground but I have not seen it)

It's unfortunate as I have really enjoyed some places I've been on the East Coast. I've not spent any real time in New England, really nothing north of DC for any amount of time. The history and story of the area is very interesting in whatever phase of history you want to look at. Lots of tragedy to learn from (not that that is unique to the East Coast either) but some super interesting history if you dig a little.

 

[mbryson]

So a kid playing legally is just 'accepting the consequences' if they are killed by a cop? I hope no one really believes that to be true.

In the case of Tamir Rice, arrival to shooting, happened in a reported 2 seconds. It is not unreasonable to expect officers to take time to asses a situation fully before utilizing deadly force. If we don't hold to even that basic standard than anyone who legally carries a gun is simply "accepting the consequences" if they are shot and killed to a legal and constitutionally protected act.

I had to look this up as I'm not smart enough to digest all the "news" out there. Here's the Wikipedia version....

On November 22, 2014, Tamir Rice, a 12-year old African-American boy, was killed in Cleveland, Ohio, by Timothy Loehmann, a 26-year-old white police officer. Rice was carrying a replica toy gun; Loehmann shot him almost immediately after arriving on the scene.

Two officers, Loehmann and 46-year-old Frank Garmback, were responding to a police dispatch call regarding a male who had a gun.[3][4][5] A caller reported that a male was pointing "a pistol" at random people at the Cudell Recreation Center, a park in the City of Cleveland's Public Works Department.[6] At the beginning of the call and again in the middle, he says of the pistol "it's probably fake."[7] Toward the end of the two-minute call, the caller states that "he is probably a juvenile"; however, this information was not relayed to officers Loehmann or Garmback on the initial dispatch.[8][9][10] The officers reported that upon their arrival, they both continuously yelled "show me your hands" through the open patrol car window, however according to Judge Ronald B. Adrine, after viewing footage of the incident, "...On the video the zone car containing Patrol Officers Loehmann and Garmback is still in the process of stopping when Rice is shot."[13] Loehmann further stated that instead of showing his hands, it appeared as if Rice was trying to draw: "I knew it was a gun and I knew it was coming out."[11][12][13] The officer shot twice, hitting Rice once in the torso.[4][14] He died the following day.[15]

Rice's gun was later found to be an airsoft replica that lacked the orange-tipped barrel, which would have indicated it was a toy gun.[16][17]

A surveillance video of the incident was released by the police four days after the shooting, on 26 November.[18] On 3 June 2015, the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office declared that their investigation had been completed and that they had turned their findings over to the county prosecutor. Several months later the prosecution presented evidence to a grand jury, which declined to indict, primarily on the basis that Rice was drawing what appears to be an actual firearm from his waist as the police arrived.[12][19][20] A lawsuit brought against the city of Cleveland by Rice's family was subsequently settled for $6 million.[1]

In the aftermath of the shooting it was revealed that Loehmann, in his previous job as a police officer in the Cleveland suburb of Independence, had been deemed an emotionally unstable recruit and unfit for duty.[21] Loehmann did not disclose this fact on his application to join the Cleveland police,[22] and the Cleveland police never reviewed his previous personnel file before hiring him.[21] In 2017, following an investigation, Loehmann was fired for withholding this information on his application.[22]

A review by retired FBI agent Kimberly Crawford found that Rice's death was justified and Loehmann's "response was a reasonable one."[23]

The incident received both national and international coverage, and it occurred on the heels of several other high-profile shootings of African-American males by police officers.

Putting an officer into a position (in whatever lighting and situation) to determine if your gun is a TOY or not is pretty unfair to the officer. Split second judgements by ANYONE aren't exactly something any of us want analyzed. A mistake by the officer can be lethal to them and/or lethal to the citizen that is "brandishing" the "toy". I can totally see the perspective of the officer to err very slightly to the side of them being able to return home vs not knowing if the "gun" they see is a "toy" or an actual gun.

In the above, it appears they got a little "trigger happy". We do have no way of knowing if the above is slanted either way. If I'm confronted by an officer or group of officers and hear "show me your hands", I'm showing my hands to the best of my ability. I am NOT brandishing a firearm or replica of a firearm in any way that an officer would be threatened. (at least that's my intent) I'm white, a flaming heterosexual and male so I'm sure my opinion doesn't matter in the current climate but that's my take.

 

[TRD270]

So a kid playing legally is just 'accepting the consequences' if they are killed by a cop? I hope no one really believes that to be true.

In the case of Tamir Rice, arrival to shooting, happened in a reported 2 seconds. It is not unreasonable to expect officers to take time to asses a situation fully before utilizing deadly force. If we don't hold to even that basic standard than anyone who legally carries a gun is simply "accepting the consequences" if they are shot and killed to a legal and constitutionally protected act.

Yes accept the consequences for allowing your child to play with a facsimile of a firearm. Which is ILLEGAL. Thats why toys are marked with orange barrels. And with the current outrage climate and the supposed ruthless racial motivated killings by cops, why would you allow your child to play in public with a realistic looking toy gun?

Would love to see how you would react if you rolled up on a scene and had a weapon fake or real pointed at you. I guess you value your life less than I do mine if you wouldn't fire.

Having been shot at myself, I can tell you its not an enjoyable experience.

I've also dealt with some 12-14 year olds that were bigger than me. I'm 6'2" 200lbs for the he was a kid argument

 

[jeeper]

I am usually on Police side of things.. but watch the Tamir video.. no matter if he had a real gun or not, the cops messed up soooo bad. They had no need to drive across the lawn that close to him. Driving in the way they did put the passenger officer directly next to a 'firearm' and he was put in fight or flight himself. He kicks the door open and fires as he flees. They should have pulled up in the parking lot, facing the kid, and took shelter behind their car if needed. The police did not give themselves anytime for visual of the subject, they did not give any commands. IF they really thought there was a crazy man with a gun, the totally screwed the way they went in, and only made it worse.

 

[jeeper]

Yes accept the consequences for allowing your child to play with a facsimile of a firearm. Which is ILLEGAL. Thats why toys are marked with orange barrels.

And in the 2 seconds it took those officers to fire as they were kicking doors open and stumbling on the ground, do you really think they had time to look for an orange tip? I doubt it.

Whether any kid has a orange tip or not, that is hardly justification for shooting them. I've had multiple guns pointed at me. I would still take a second to assess a situation before firing.

What if you roll up on a concealed carrier firing against the bad guy.. you cant just shoot him because he has a gun. If shoot now, ask questions later is your mindset, it needs to change.

And with the current outrage climate and the supposed ruthless racial motivated killings by cops, why would you allow your child to play in public with a realistic looking toy gun?

Because America.
And because we SHOULDN'T be living in fear of police shooting our kids.. I think thats the point to a lot of this.

 

[TRD270]

I am usually on Police side of things.. but watch the Tamir video.. no matter if he had a real gun or not, the cops messed up soooo bad. They had no need to drive across the lawn that close to him. Driving in the way they did put the passenger officer directly next to a 'firearm' and he was put in fight or flight himself. He kicks the door open and fires as he flees. They should have pulled up in the parking lot, facing the kid, and took shelter behind their car if needed. The police did not give themselves anytime for visual of the subject, they did not give any commands. IF they really thought there was a crazy man with a gun, the totally screwed the way they went in, and only made it worse.

Agreed. The outcome should have been a lot better. But again I attribute this to poor training and poor judgement. Not racial motivation.

I had almost this exact call at a park in Riverton ohh 2012ish? Was a real gun, wasn't pointed at me and suspect was taken into custody without incident. Also drove on the lawn to use car as cover but was virtually no other cover in the area.

I can also say what a caller says on the phone and what gets relayed by dispatch ofter vary greatly, or what a caller states is happening and what is really happening. I can't even count how many times I came to a scene where I thought I was going to be fighting on arrival or being ready to be in a gun fight only to have the scene be totally calm.

 

[jeeper]

Agreed. The outcome should have been a lot better. But again I attribute this to poor training and poor judgement. Not racial motivation.

I had almost this exact call at a park in Riverton ohh 2012ish? Was a real gun, wasn't pointed at me and suspect was taken into custody without incident. Also drove on the lawn to use car as cover but was virtually no other cover in the area.

I can also say what a caller says on the phone and what gets relayed by dispatch ofter vary greatly, or what a caller states is happening and what is really happening. I can't even count how many times I came to a scene where I thought I was going to be fighting on arrival or being ready to be in a gun fight only to have the scene be totally calm.

This and this.


I have been the 'teenagers shooting rifles at houses', when it was really an 8yr old, shooting bb guns, at cans, in my yard, with my dad.
The officers came in hot, but cooled themselves real quick.
I don't think race is really ever the issue.

 

[TRD270]

Because America.
And because we SHOULDN'T be living in fear of police shooting our kids.. I think thats the point to a lot of this.

100% agree, but we also probably shouldn't be playing in a park with a realistic looking gun orange tip or not

 

[UNSTUCK]

And because we SHOULDN'T be living in fear of police shooting our kids.. I think thats the point to a lot of this.

I don't live in fear of being shot by cops. But if I ever find myself in a situation where guns could come out, I'll give up some of my rights for just a second to make sure I stay living. I'll also do smart things like not brandish a fake gun like a real one. I'll never give the cops a need to stop and think. The constitution says I don't have to, but mamma wants me alive so...

No matter what, we all live in a bit of fear. I shouldn't have to take my keys out of my truck and lock it, but I do.

I'm white, a flaming heterosexual and male so I'm sure my opinion doesn't matter in the current climate but that's my take.

It's funny you mention that. As I read your post I was thinking, "this would have so much more impact if he was gay". And then you brought it up.

 

[Houndoc]

Agreed. The outcome should have been a lot better. But again I attribute this to poor training and poor judgement. Not racial motivation.

What role race played in it is hard for any of us to know. Would I be surprised that the fact that it was a black youth with a gun made the officer more prone to assume the worst? Not at all.

But whether it was race, lack of training or whatever other factors we attribute to it, it was a complete failure on the part of police that left a child dead for being a child.

These are the reasons to call for police reforms.

 

[TRD270]

But whether it was race, lack of training or whatever other factors we attribute to it, it was a complete failure on the part of police that left a child dead for being a child.

These are the reasons to call for police reforms.

Agreed, things need to change and things are changing. It's an ever evolving entity. That said "cops would be replaced by “community-led activities” and organizations focused on “housing, food security, and other basic needs” along with “culturally-relevant expertise rooted in community connections,”

To gain police department funding, groups must show they are “well-versed in de-escalation skills” along with “trauma-informed, gender-affirming, anti-racist praxis” and are “committed to hiring staff from the communities they serve,” according to the proposal."



IS NOT THE ANSWER

Just look at the way UPD is falling apart. It has terrible leadership, and the cities are tired of it. They don't have a say on what happens in their city or what officers they get, how they are trained etc etc. You vote a terrible leader in you get a terrible byproduct.

Independent departments for each city costs citizens a lot more and makes joint efforts for higher risk ops worse. Communication is terrible, different policies, different tactics.

Its really a shame it was a good idea and it made for much more cohesive policing across the valley. But with who's left the department won't be able to sustain itself and will be reverting back to the sheriffs office within a few years. But I digress, point is reform is going the wrong way. You need better trained, better educated officers with more tools (dealing with mental health, domestic violence etc etc) Sure bring on more counselors (They already have them but yeah when UPD was full force there were 8 yes 8 for the entire area UPD covered) Defund? No thanks, better prepare? Fire officers that have no business being officers? Incentivize hiring intelligent people? Get rid of the good ole' boy/gal system? Yeah I'll take that.

 

[Houndoc]

Agreed, things need to change and things are changing. It's an ever evolving entity. That said "cops would be replaced by “community-led activities” and organizations focused on “housing, food security, and other basic needs” along with “culturally-relevant expertise rooted in community connections,”

To gain police department funding, groups must show they are “well-versed in de-escalation skills” along with “trauma-informed, gender-affirming, anti-racist praxis” and are “committed to hiring staff from the communities they serve,” according to the proposal."



IS NOT THE ANSWER

You need better trained, better educated officers with more tools (dealing with mental health, domestic violence etc etc) Sure bring on more counselors (They already have them but yeah when UPD was full force there were 8 yes 8 for the entire area UPD covered) Defund? No thanks, better prepare? Fire officers that have no business being officers? Incentivize hiring intelligent people? Get rid of the good ole' boy/gal system? Yeah I'll take that.

I honestly do not see why having more focus on thins that help prevent crime (housing, basic needs, education, job training, drug treatment) instead of spending all the money on jails, police and courts is a bad thing. Personally, I would rather have my tax money help people become productive (and tax paying ) citizens than just house them in a prison.

Obviously it does not replace the need for law enforcement and other than perhaps a few on the extreme fringes, no one is proposing that.

Not do I see a problem with a focus on de-escalation technics from law enforcement. I would say it is absolutely needed.

And those areas that you say you will take at the end are in reality what the majority of protesters have been calling for. As I pointed out earlier, there is a lot of common ground when we slow down and look at what is good for society instead of retreating to our corners as too often happens.

 

[Stephen]

Obviously it does not replace the need for law enforcement and other than perhaps a few on the extreme fringes, no one is proposing that.

Ummm... Black Lives Matter explicitly wants to de-fund police departments nationwide. And this inane line saying, "Oh, protesters screaming 'de-fund the police' while throwing bricks at cops doesn't really mean get rid of the police!" presumes that the rest of us are rubes. We're not. We get it, police represent the state, and the state must be overthrown in order for the revolution to flourish.

None of these protests have anything to do with bettering the lives of black people! Its all about one thing: REVOLUTION! The complete destruction and restructuring of Western civilization generally and the American way of life specifically. Socialist theory, be it espouse by Marx and Engels, Lenin, Mao, or Ayers; all talk about finding a convenient conduit to frame their argument so that the proletariat will sympathize with them and rally to their cause. Engels chose Christianity:

“Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge. Has not Christianity declaimed against private property, against marriage, against the State? Has it not preached in the place of these, charity and poverty, celibacy and mortification of the flesh, monastic life and Mother Church? Christian Socialism is but the holy water with which the priest consecrates the heart-burnings of the aristocrat.”

Today's revolutionaries have taken an easily defensible concept, "black lives matter", and made it their clarion call. You can't argue against it, any decent human agrees that, yes, black lives do matter. Now if you oppose the organization Black Lives Matter, you are also against "black lives matter"; which makes you a heartless racist and clearly a supporter of the "system of oppression". So now in order to maintain your public or professional life and not get "canceled", you must support black lives matter/Black Live Matter because they are one and the same and thus you are now supporting such "fringe" concepts as de-funding the police.

 

[glockman]

Ummm... Black Lives Matter explicitly wants to de-fund police departments nationwide. And this inane line saying, "Oh, protesters screaming 'de-fund the police' while throwing bricks at cops doesn't really mean get rid of the police!" presumes that the rest of us are rubes. We're not. We get it, police represent the state, and the state must be overthrown in order for the revolution to flourish.

None of these protests have anything to do with bettering the lives of black people! Its all about one thing: REVOLUTION! The complete destruction and restructuring of Western civilization generally and the American way of life specifically. Socialist theory, be it espouse by Marx and Engels, Lenin, Mao, or Ayers; all talk about finding a convenient conduit to frame their argument so that the proletariat will sympathize with them and rally to their cause. Engels chose Christianity:


Today's revolutionaries have taken an easily defensible concept, "black lives matter", and made it their clarion call. You can't argue against it, any decent human agrees that, yes, black lives do matter. Now if you oppose the organization Black Lives Matter, you are also against "black lives matter"; which makes you a heartless racist and clearly a supporter of the "system of oppression". So now in order to maintain your public or professional life and not get "canceled", you must support black lives matter/Black Live Matter because they are one and the same and thus you are now supporting such "fringe" concepts as de-funding the police.

THIS^^^

If the goal is to save black lives, de-funding the police is the last option you'd chose. The poor black communities will pay the highest price when crime spikes.

 

[mbryson]

THIS^^^

If the goal is to save black lives, de-funding the police is the last option you'd chose. The poor black communities will pay the highest price when crime spikes.

This seems to ring true to me.

 

[Cody]

Ummm... Black Lives Matter explicitly wants to de-fund police departments nationwide. And this inane line saying, "Oh, protesters screaming 'de-fund the police' while throwing bricks at cops doesn't really mean get rid of the police!" presumes that the rest of us are rubes. We're not. We get it, police represent the state, and the state must be overthrown in order for the revolution to flourish.

None of these protests have anything to do with bettering the lives of black people! Its all about one thing: REVOLUTION! The complete destruction and restructuring of Western civilization generally and the American way of life specifically. Socialist theory, be it espouse by Marx and Engels, Lenin, Mao, or Ayers; all talk about finding a convenient conduit to frame their argument so that the proletariat will sympathize with them and rally to their cause. Engels chose Christianity:


Today's revolutionaries have taken an easily defensible concept, "black lives matter", and made it their clarion call. You can't argue against it, any decent human agrees that, yes, black lives do matter. Now if you oppose the organization Black Lives Matter, you are also against "black lives matter"; which makes you a heartless racist and clearly a supporter of the "system of oppression". So now in order to maintain your public or professional life and not get "canceled", you must support black lives matter/Black Live Matter because they are one and the same and thus you are now supporting such "fringe" concepts as de-funding the police.

I'm inclined to agree with this, but what do you think the direction the quiet majority must take in order to push back at that process? I guess what I'm asking is, historically what slowed/stopped/reversed this? Seems like a freight train with the power of viral media fueling it from within a growing population of people who trust sodial media over traditional news outlets (and who's to blame them) and tend to react first and question later.

 

[Herzog]

Ummm... Black Lives Matter explicitly wants to de-fund police departments nationwide. And this inane line saying, "Oh, protesters screaming 'de-fund the police' while throwing bricks at cops doesn't really mean get rid of the police!" presumes that the rest of us are rubes. We're not. We get it, police represent the state, and the state must be overthrown in order for the revolution to flourish.

None of these protests have anything to do with bettering the lives of black people! Its all about one thing: REVOLUTION! The complete destruction and restructuring of Western civilization generally and the American way of life specifically. Socialist theory, be it espouse by Marx and Engels, Lenin, Mao, or Ayers; all talk about finding a convenient conduit to frame their argument so that the proletariat will sympathize with them and rally to their cause. Engels chose Christianity:


Today's revolutionaries have taken an easily defensible concept, "black lives matter", and made it their clarion call. You can't argue against it, any decent human agrees that, yes, black lives do matter. Now if you oppose the organization Black Lives Matter, you are also against "black lives matter"; which makes you a heartless racist and clearly a supporter of the "system of oppression". So now in order to maintain your public or professional life and not get "canceled", you must support black lives matter/Black Live Matter because they are one and the same and thus you are now supporting such "fringe" concepts as de-funding the police.

I just want to say that I believe you are spot on here.