RME cage match: snorkels!

[Unimog]

The difference of oxygen per weight @100 deg F road temp vs @140 deg F engine bay temp is minimal.

Actually, the difference is about 10%, which I would not call minimal. I don't know what this maps out to in HP gains, but there are a lot of costly options that yield far less than a 10% increase.
Air Density and Specific Weight Table, Equations and Calculatorhttps://www.engineersedge.com › calculators › air-density

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Race engines using intercoolers is a totally different scenario.

The difference of oxygen per weight @100 deg F road temp vs @140 deg F engine bay temp is minimal. It's also irrelevant as modern engines are EFI equipped generally with MAF sensors monitoring input and O2 sensors monitoring output.

So "cold" air or not. The motor is going to adjust the inputs regardless of whatever PVC you have glued to your airbox.

Many OE Toyota snorkel applications are also on intercooler diesels for what it's worth. In those environs Toyota and end users still spec the snorkel. Our US military buys thousands of Land Cruisers for down range use, they spec the snorkel with and without the intercooled engines fwiw.

So is it laughable? Or just not cold enough air for you? I've never said it was "cold" air, I said clearly it was cool/clean air and you're seemingly agreeing that it draws in cooler air? Remind me what we are arguing. 40* is NOT a small amount and I would absolutely call that significant.

Its perhaps "irrelevant" because you're applying it to the engines you're personally familiar with. Some of the most popular Land Cruiser snorkel applications are still for old carbureted or diesel engines that draw their air from underneath the hood/fenders in the OE formats.

 

[Gravy]

Kurt, what's your experience with engine tuning changes with such a long intake track? Big restriction or no problem?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Kurt, what's your experience with engine tuning changes with such a long intake track? Big restriction or no problem?

Great question, I suspect OE's engineer their snorkels to meet/exceed CFM req's. Safari has actually increased the size of their snorkel bodies to verify that it's not creating any undue restrictive head pressure and employed quite extensive flow testing data to verify. We've run them on supercharged and many turbo applications (again they are supplied from the factory on many turbo diesel applications by Toyota). On the older carbureted stuff, they always require constant tuning and adjustments anyways so it's fair to say that a snorkel could cause you to make some tweaks to your carb/ignition.

 

[Gravy]

That's similar to my thoughts: although my "hands on" knowledge of snorkels is limited. My theoretical knowledge with ME fluid dynamics class from nearly 2 decades ago and watching lots of "Engine Masters" Dyno tuning runs echos your thoughts.
Longer intake runners most certainly change power characteristics so I'd be interested to see comparisons on a few different engines.
I invision lots more intake air turbulence and friction as the increase in tube length and bends add up.

 

[Jeepj667]

Not a snorkel but my truck had a big ass open filter under the hood and I was having problems with it overheating. I put a cheap temp sensor on the filter and was seeing 130-140° air temps when climbing parleys last week. Coolant was ~240° when hitting the top.
My redneck engineering fix was the bucket. Up parleys this week intake temps were ~100° coolant was 210° at the top.
Now I have to build a better airbox.

 

[UNSTUCK]

Race engines using intercoolers is a totally different scenario.

The difference of oxygen per weight @100 deg F road temp vs @140 deg F engine bay temp is minimal. It's also irrelevant as modern engines are EFI equipped generally with MAF sensors monitoring input and O2 sensors monitoring output.

So "cold" air or not. The motor is going to adjust the inputs regardless of whatever PVC you have glued to your airbox.

Unless race engines that use intercoolers do something different than normal engines the scenario is the same. Extremes my be different though. Bottom line.... an ICE (see what I did there ) benefits from coldest air it can get. Doesn't matter if it comes from a stock filter housing, a snorkel, an air to air intercooler, air to water intercooler, etc. That MAF you speak of is going to see how much air is coming in and tell the computer if there is now more air available, then perhaps before a mod was done. It's then up to the computer to decide to use it and make more power, assuming the rest of the engine parts can also adjust to match that air flow.

You make it sound like there is infinite adjustability in the "inputs" (you meant outputs). There is not. Say for example if the air temp is 100* and all the other inputs at a given moment tell the ECM to output 22 lb/hr of fuel. I believe that's mechanically my max fuel flow in my injectors. Now if the intake air temp dropped to 60* the MAF would pick up more air flow and send that information on. ECM now might ask the injectors to flow 30 lb/hr (random number). Obviously that can't happen as the injectors were already maxed out. Fuel goes lean, O2s pick that up, adjustments are made.

Colder air doesn't increase power by itself. It just creates an opportunity for more power to be made, assuming all the other inputs and outputs, mechanical or electrical, can handle it.

 

[RockChucker]

@cruiseroutfit that is surprising that you can't run a snorkel on the race sequoia. Do the rules flat out prohibit it? Just curious what filter you do run? One of those fancy UMP ones? I wish I had room to run some sort of cyclone filter on my rig, but I don't want to give up any space in passenger compartment, so I'm married to a large cylinder paper filter in the passenger fender area. Not ideal, but it works but I'm sure that intake air temps are quite high. I've been looking at a Volant Donaldson Powercore as a replacement for my OEM GMC Savana filter. Might free up some underhood space, but do nothing for getting it out of the fender well.

Personally, I'll never have a snorkel. I get the benefits of a properly designed one, but don't like the looks and it wouldn't survive well in my rig's application. If there was another way to get remote, cooler, cleaner air, I'd do it...as long as it doesn't involve putting the filter in the passenger compartment. I've seen guys with TJs put them under the cowl, but i'm not sure there is enough room to put a consequentially big enough filter in there that wouldn't be like trying to breathe through a coffee straw.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

@cruiseroutfit that is surprising that you can't run a snorkel on the race sequoia. Do the rules flat out prohibit it? Just curious what filter you do run? One of those fancy UMP ones? I wish I had room to run some sort of cyclone filter on my rig, but I don't want to give up any space in passenger compartment, so I'm married to a large cylinder paper filter in the passenger fender area. Not ideal, but it works but I'm sure that intake air temps are quite high. I've been looking at a Volant Donaldson Powercore as a replacement for my OEM GMC Savana filter. Might free up some underhood space, but do nothing for getting it out of the fender well.

Personally, I'll never have a snorkel. I get the benefits of a properly designed one, but don't like the looks and it wouldn't survive well in my rig's application. If there was another way to get remote, cooler, cleaner air, I'd do it...as long as it doesn't involve putting the filter in the passenger compartment. I've seen guys with TJs put them under the cowl, but i'm not sure there is enough room to put a consequentially big enough filter in there that wouldn't be like trying to breathe through a coffee straw.

I've not read into it super deep so we may be able to sneak something in but when Geiser Brothers build the cage and suspension tube work in the vehicle (Lexus LX570/Land Cruiser 200 fwiw) they routed the intake into the cab (basically enters where the glove box would be) and built an air cleaner setup there. There is no room under the hood for even a small sealed airbox and routing out of the existing unit would require some trimming for the cage and moving of body work which is where it gets technical, we are supposed to use production sheet metal. We run a large AEM DryFlow Filter. We change it every 300-400 miles in a 1000+ mile desert race. We had the UMP system on our older vehicle (VW based), the rear engine made it really easy to setup. We dealt with silt issues there as well but not nearly to the degree we do with the current filter setup. That said it's finished 20+ races including 8? Baja 1000's so it's not exactly an unworkable setup, just not as convenient and we did suffer a Baja 1000 DNF due to filtration. So much go thru even the dry filter that we dusted the throttle body. That really kicked off/increased our filter swap planning.

 

[Jesser04]

All great points but can we agree that 9 of 10 snorkels i see driving around are strictly for expo points. The hardest trail they’ve seen is the loop at sugarhouse park.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

All great points but can we agree that 9 of 10 snorkels i see driving around are strictly for expo points. The hardest trail they’ve seen is the loop at sugarhouse park.

I’m not sure which talking points you thought were great, particularly relating to a snorkel being effective only on a hard trail? They are no more or less effective on a “hard trail”, perhaps a dusty trail? Of course any mod could be judged “poseur“ if one is doing it purely for the aesthetic no? Ironically it can be argued the snorkel provides some intrinsic benefit for daily driving, not found with a winch or skid plate.

Lets Look at it this way:
“All great points but can we agree that 9 of 10 .............. i see driving around are strictly for off-road poseur points. The hardest trail they’ve seen is the loop at sugarhouse park.”

Insert: Lift kit, Winches, oversized tires, beadlock wheels, long arms, sliders, roof top tents, cb radios, ladders, skid plates, light bars, ditch lights, high clearance bumpers, stingers, recovery, devices, CO2 tanks, fuel/water cans, Upgraded axle housings, etc.

Perhaps we need a grading system, A thru F, indicating how legit of an off-roader and/or a persons vehicle modifications are. I know if would be super helpful for me to reference as apparently some of you can easily look at a vehicle and determine how poseur they are, help the rest of us out. I’ve never had that skill set, I need at least a conversation with them to determine that

 

[Kiel]

Desert pinstripes lead to snorkel legitimacy, as well as missing pain on sliders etc etc

 

[Cody]

I think limb risers are really how you separate the wheat from the chaff. At least IMO. They're the hazy IPA of vehicle mods in Utah.

 

[ID Bronco]

I think limb risers are really how you separate the wheat from the chaff. At least IMO. They're the hazy IPA of vehicle mods in Utah.

Thankfully I had to search what these are. That's total badassery right there.

 

[frieed]

I think limb risers are really how you separate the wheat from the chaff. At least IMO. They're the hazy IPA of vehicle mods in Utah.

I think I need those:

 

[Kevin B.]

I think limb risers are really how you separate the wheat from the chaff. At least IMO. They're the hazy IPA of vehicle mods in Utah.

Ok hang on though, because I'm seriously considering installing a set. My big bitch doesn't weave through the trees very well, and I've had branches hit the corner of the windshield just right and break it.

 

[I Lean]

Ok hang on though, because I'm seriously considering installing a set. My big bitch doesn't weave through the trees very well, and I've had branches hit the corner of the windshield just right and break it.

I caught a lot of branches my last trip out, that would have been lessened by a set of risers....

 

[Stephen]

I think limb risers are really how you separate the wheat from the chaff. At least IMO. They're the hazy IPA of vehicle mods in Utah.

If its good enough for the 1968 London-Sydney Rally, its good enough for me:

 

[Cody]

Ok hang on though, because I'm seriously considering installing a set. My big bitch doesn't weave through the trees very well, and I've had branches hit the corner of the windshield just right and break it.

yes, but do you need to drive around town with them on? I'm not saying there aren't places they may be useful, I'm just saying State and 33rd aint one of them.

Whatever you think of snorkel's is fine, but they can't be easily removed. I hate when people leave stuff on their truck when they are just casually commuting around town that could be easily removed, just so they can look the part. That's my personal way to identify a poser. I have no statistics verifying the accuracy of my process, but I know Kurt is annoyed by this lol.

 

[moab_cj5]

yes, but do you need to drive around town with them on? I'm not saying there aren't places they may be useful, I'm just saying State and 33rd aint one of them.

Whatever you think of snorkel's is fine, but they can't be easily removed. I hate when people leave stuff on their truck when they are just casually commuting around town that could be easily removed, just so they can look the part. That's my personal way to identify a poser. I have no statistics verifying the accuracy of my process, but I know Kurt is annoyed by this lol.

I'm lazy, so I often leave Jerry cans and rotopax on my cruiser long after a trip, so I guess I'm a poser... I'm sure my cruiser looks like a poser rig from 30' away. Then when you get close it just looks like a pile of stinky crap...