SLCPD shoots dog... in it's backyard

LT.

Well-Known Member
I appeal to your expertise, but how does the fourth amendment come in? Isn't there a "hot pursuit" clause, and wouldn't that sort of apply here?

Here is an excerpt on the fourth amendment. The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights that prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and requires any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause.

One threshold question in the Fourth Amendment jurisprudence is whether a "search" has occurred. Initial Fourth Amendment case law hinged on a citizen's property rights—that is, when the government physically intrudes on "persons, houses, papers, or effects" for the purpose of obtaining information, a "search" within the original meaning of the Fourth Amendment has occurred. Early 20th-century Court decisions, such as Olmstead v. United States (1928), held that Fourth Amendment rights applied in cases of physical intrusion, but not to other forms of police surveillance (e.g., wiretaps).[SUP][35][/SUP] In Silverman v. United States (1961), the Court stated of the amendment that "at the very core stands the right of a man to retreat into his own home and there be free from unreasonable governmental intrusion."[SUP][36][/SUP]

This was taken from Wikipedia directly. Basically I understand it as an illegal search. Once the officer opened the gate he was wrong. If the officer had just peered into the yard then he would have been okay. The officer physically intruded onto the property via fenced off area and entered through the gate I.E. illegal search.

I know that this is just my interputation here and that there will always be a gray area. But, I define a "Hot Pursuit clause as though an officer is chasing down a known felon. It that case, an officer may run through a yard, business and such in an effort to apprehend the suspect.

I am no expert perhaps just a little more versed in this area due to my employment. There is always going to be a disagreement among folks who read the law. How I read it and understand it will be different from others who do the same.

The real question is was there probable cause for the officer to be there in the first place. And, how will a judge interrupt the officers actions. I believe there is so much wrong with this instance and nothing right. Gate was latched, latch was too high for a toddler to reach, toddler may not have been able to work latch, officers did not start their search in the home, officer did not use reasonable force, deadly force was not authorized, a single shot to a dogs head?, tough shot to make while under extreme stress such as being attacked by a dog, are there any wounds on the officer?, illegal search, trespassing without probable cause, not backing out of the yard once officer felt threatened, no preclusion, no serious bodily harm from officer, and this is just what I can see.

Problem is though, simply termanating the officers employment is not enough. It is a start but, the department is dealing with some serious training issues. I still believe the owner of the dog has a serious case on his hands. One that should keep him from ever having to work again.

LT.
 
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MikeGyver

UtahWeld.com
Location
Arem
I agree that the dead dog isn't even the real issue here, just the icing on the cake. Does an officer now also have the right to let himself in your front door, visually search your home, including look under your bed because he's randomly searching for a missing person from the vicinity... and execute anything that may catch him off guard or is deemed to be a possible threat? ...does search and rescue? does a neighborhood search volunteer?


Why is the department even trying to endorse this? Do they just want all the power they can get? It scares the hell out of me that someone/a department showing such unrestrained judgement can be appointed with authority that can so unpretentiously challenge even the Constitution. I hope the owner of the dead dog sues and makes it hurt; maybe it'll help interpret our own basic rights for the future.
 

JL Rockies

Binders Fulla Expo
Location
Draper
The Constitution is pretty clear on Fed land ownership as well, but I digress.
Despite a downward trend in crime, instances of police shootings/violence/overstep seem to be on the rise. My concern is the same generations coming up shooting up schools and voting Democrat are also becoming police officers and deserting soldiers.
My quest of being in law enforcement ended after I graduated from the academy because I didn't like what I saw then... it's much worse now and so is the citizenry you must recruit from.


BLM... lolz.
 

ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
One question I have is.................If the dog had been a rottweiler or a pit bull (I personally despise both breeds) would we be having the same discussion? I don't know for sure but the bird hunter in me looks at this dog a little more intensely than if it was a breed I disliked or had a reputation for aggression.

Now the private property part I have a huge issue with, but a separate issue.
 

Marsh99

Lover of all things Toyota
Location
Mantua UT
Who do you think is going to have to come up with these millions of dollars that you feel this guy is entitled to?

I don't think this case is worth millions but I am betting you can sue the officer civilly if the shooting is ruled unjustified.
 

Coco

Well-Known Member
Location
Lehi, UT
I did see on Facebook someone organized a rally for support of the owner and his dog. From what I saw, it looked like 2000+ people were attending according to that page.
 

Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
One question I have is.................If the dog had been a rottweiler or a pit bull (I personally despise both breeds) would we be having the same discussion? I don't know for sure but the bird hunter in me looks at this dog a little more intensely than if it was a breed I disliked or had a reputation for aggression.

Now the private property part I have a huge issue with, but a separate issue.
We wouldn't be having this discussion if it were a rottweiler or a pit bull. If we're getting ready to talk "pay for it to go away" amounts from SLCPD I think they would probably jump at $50k right now. It's done more PR damage to them than that.
 

broncomitch

dont be a sheep in a jeep
Location
west jordan,UT
I dunno about that...this is more about he auctions of the officer...but hard to say, pitbulls have been on the hit list for ever...:(

anyone going to the rally tomorrow?

Im I going to try and make it out.
Not one for protesting or anything but I do feel cops have to much power and they want more and more and just like the government, silence is consent.
 

LT.

Well-Known Member
Who do you think is going to have to come up with these millions of dollars that you feel this guy is entitled to?

I see where you are going with this. But, for this issue to inflict change the dollar value has to be high. For 50k nothing will change and the department will simply buy their way out. Quarter million will only raise an eybrow and will be hidden in a budget. Make the dollar amount high enough (even if settled out of court) and change will be forced.

I do not believe he is entitiled to that much. But, the department has to change the way they do buisness. The police simply cannot flex their muscles and intimate the people. Pocket books is the first place to start. Second is to run their names through the mud via media coverage. I understand the officer who fired the shot is a hero from another shooting rampage. But, one good deed does not over come a bad one.

Personally, I believe the officer needs to be fired. The police department owes a very public apology to the owner, and then a substancial amount of money needs to go to the owner. Then the department has to invest money and time to better train their officers. You simply cannot train for the worst outcome all the time. When you do you will end up with people who will over react to simple issues.

LT.
 

LT.

Well-Known Member
One question I have is.................If the dog had been a rottweiler or a pit bull (I personally despise both breeds) would we be having the same discussion? I don't know for sure but the bird hunter in me looks at this dog a little more intensely than if it was a breed I disliked or had a reputation for aggression.

Now the private property part I have a huge issue with, but a separate issue.

I would hope that the breed would not change the outcome of this discussion. I don't care what the breed of dog or the species of animal was. The officers actions were as wrong as could be. This is the meat and potatoes of this discussion. Not the breed or species of pet. My opinion anyways.

LT.
 

LT.

Well-Known Member
Who do you think is going to have to come up with these millions of dollars that you feel this guy is entitled to?

I see where you are going with this. But, for this issue to inflict change the dollar value has to be high. For 50k nothing will change and the department will simply buy there way out. Quarter million will only raise an eybrow and will be hidden in a budget. Make the dollar amount high enough (even if settled out of court) and change will be forced.

I do not believe he is entitiled to that much. But, the department has to change the way they do buisness. The police simply cannot flex their muscles and intimate the people. Pocket books is the first place to start. Second is to run their names through the mud via media coverage. I understand the officer who fired the shot is a hero from another shooting rampage. But, one good deed does not over come a bad one.

Personally, I believe the officer needs to be fired. The police department owes a very public apology to the owner, and then a substancial amouny of money needs to go to the owner. Then the department has to invest money and time to better train their officers. You simply cannot train for the worst outcome all the time. When you do you will end up with people who will over react to simple issues.

LT.
 

TJDukit

I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.
Location
Clearfield
Thanks LT.

It sucks that of course any money paid out comes from the taxpayers...but the taxpayers are the people who create change or at least that's the way it should be. The only way to change the way the government operates is to make it hurt for them to continue to operate in a fashion that we don't agree with. This situation is a bad situation that can help drive a greater cause if people will stand together and make the Unified Police District or whatever they call themselves suffer the consequences of the lack of training that resulted in this mans dog getting shot.
 

LT.

Well-Known Member
Thanks LT.

It sucks that of course any money paid out comes from the taxpayers...but the taxpayers are the people who create change or at least that's the way it should be. The only way to change the way the government operates is to make it hurt for them to continue to operate in a fashion that we don't agree with. This situation is a bad situation that can help drive a greater cause if people will stand together and make the Unified Police District or whatever they call themselves suffer the consequences of the lack of training that resulted in this mans dog getting shot.

You are quite welcome. And very well put.

The comments towards the officer regarding harm are out of line. Too bad because if the comments like that had not been sent I believe this issue would be favored more towards Gueist and his owner. Comments like that are only going to sway folks who are on the fence towards the failed police department. I understand that the officer had done some good things before regarding a public shooting. With his correct actions in that instance and having demonstrated similar actions towards this issue I would tend to think the department spends more time training their officers for the worst and not so much time training their officers for more realistic and everyday events. My employer used to do similar training for us. An event happened at another site that changed the way we currently train. I hope that other departments realize this event should have had a very different outcome and train their officers accordingly.

LT.
 

LT.

Well-Known Member
Lately, I have been thinking about my previous comments about firing the officer. My comments might be wrong. Suppose the officer's training was lacking. Suppose the officer's actions were to his level of training. Then the officer should retain his job and the PD's training manager should lose their's. Lots of what ifs here that I had not given much thought to.

LT.
 

redrussell

Active Member
Another point to just consider here in your thoughts. Was this officer ever deployed? In the region of Afghanistan where I was dogs were all over and very aggressive and often feral. We were trained and had it drilled in that dogs must be faced head on and to never turn your back on them. From experience I know that backing away from an aggressing dog can lead to other issues, like running into another dog from behind or what happened to me... you trip over something and end up fighting with the dog from the ground. Hind sight is 20/20 and it can be analyzed all you want but instinct whether by nature or training will take over. I disagree 100% with the officers actions and know from experience that the dog does not need to have lethal force used as a first resort. This was obviously a family pet so the disease risk we had would not be a consideration. If I were the home owner and was home at the time the officer probably would have shot me because if there was a gun shot in my back yard I would be investigating with the same level of force in my hands in either the form of a shotgun or pistol depending on the layout of my yard and surrounding hazards or collateral risks.

From my perspective this shows a need for greater Mental training like the Military MRT program. Situational training and above all quick decision making with the ability to make snap decisions with the least lethal force being the first reaction. It sounds like it is an impossible task but when broekn down into simple training with repetition it isn't an overwhelming task or habit to train to be properly effective. I know that from personal experience.

Tip learned with dogs from Afghanistan, a swift boot toe to the base of neck or chest will stop or stun even the largest dog as it lifts its head to bite or jump on you.
 
D

Deleted member 12904

Guest
I have been thinking about this a ton. My dogs will be aggressive to any stranger that comes in our yard. I have a 120# german shepherd and a 80# german shepherd and you can bet your ass they will attack you if you enter my yard without me. The thing that gets me the most is I can buy land, Put a fence around my land, Have a closed gate to keep my animals in and other animals and people out of said land. And even with all of that an office who is not in hot pursuit can enter my yard and shoot my dogs?

Honestly to me the issue isn't training here its the amount of freedom law enforcement has. Say it was my sisters kid missing and I was out searching for her and I entered a fenced yard and shot a dog that attacked me would I be protected because when I shot the dog and trespassed on the property I deemed it an emergency even though the only reason I was back there was because I wanted to check everywhere? I want every child to be safe. If my kids wend missing I would want everyone doing everything they could to find them. But I don't like the idea of loosing freedom "For the higher good".
 
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D

Deleted member 12904

Guest
I also just want to be clear Im not in favor of putting an animal above a human. If any human was in danger from one of my dogs I would have zero hesitation on taking my dogs life myself if needed and would hold zero grudge to anyone who had to end one f my dogs life to save a human. Its just sad because had the officer not had the freedom to trespass the responsible dog owners dog would not have been able to place anyone in a harmful situation.
 
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