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SLCPD shoots dog... in it's backyard

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Deleted member 12904

Guest
UT410 said:
I, too, have been thinking about it. Burbank said some things that piqued my interest. He mentions that there have been deaths of humans that haven't gotten as much response.
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An acquaintance of mine I play sports with is an officer. People where busting his chops the night it happened and he said well Im just glad it took the spotlight of the West Valley police detective charged with manslaughter. So you are correct this dog did trump the woman that got shot in the head.
 
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STAG

Well-Known Member
I'm biting my tongue on my opinions, but it makes me want to have a sign made for the side-gate on my house stating: "CAUTION! Behind this gate is a dog who is not on a leash, and not kenneled. Dog is not known to be aggressive, but there is no saying what his actions/attitude may be when you enter this property as a stranger. PLEASE DO NOT SHOOT MY DOG!"

or something along those lines. Maybe a more condensed version.
But either way keep my gate locked with a padlock so that if for whatever reason a cop had to get into my backyard he would have to hop the fence, and hopefully when he looked over he would see my dog, and possibly see that whatever he was looking for in my backyard is not there.
 
Unimog

Unimog

Eric
Location
Stansbury Park, UT
UT410 said:
I've read all sorts of people commenting on firing the guy. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with letting him off, scot-free, and not holding him accountable - either. He messed up and it reflects on the SLCPD, too. I'd have no problem with him issuing an apology and working with the PR dept. by working at a shelter a few hours a month - even if he's paid to do it.
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^^ This. The situation is a tragedy for all involved. Some of the crap being spewed in the media and coming from public opinion is way out of line. I don't even see firing this officer as solving any problem. While I am a staunch defender of personal freedom, we need an educated, trained police force to deal with crap that most of us would rather not deal with. I want this police force to change the way they treat personal property. A lawsuit would cost the citizens of SLC and all of us indirectly. While I get the "send a message" mentality, I don't think it is the best way to change behavior.
 
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redrussell

Active Member
UT410 said:
I've read all sorts of people commenting on firing the guy. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with letting him off, scot-free, and not holding him accountable - either. He messed up and it reflects on the SLCPD, too. I'd have no problem with him issuing an apology and working with the PR dept. by working at a shelter a few hours a month - even if he's paid to do it.
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Working with PR to look good does what for the family? A shelter does what except waste time and be a feeble attempt to say we are doing something but not really. My dogs are just like my children and my kids play with and love them the same as they do each other. Some dogs are better than most people. I have shot dogs, how you rationalize it in your head is on each person.

It's sad that people die and it is not noticed, that is a fact of todays society. The fact that this was a domestic setting, a gun was involved, a police officer was involved and that it is something that would get attention and an outcry from certain groups was the point of the writer or reporter and editors in this situation. News is just like advertising, get attention and keep it. They got attention and it is a story that is continued to be talked about so people will continue to check into that news source and those people may find another story to get hooked to. The Officer over reacted, whether the officer loses his job doesn't matter to me. The individual punishment for that 1 officer is just a bandaid or a blemish on the overall department. What, if anything, is done to prevent this in the future and to train for it is what matters. The family should be taken care of, if that means as simple as a new dog of the owners choosing then so be it. I don't want to see greed from the family but that sad part is that unless it is a sizable amount the go for or get it won't mean anything to the administration. My point is that I don't care what dog is attacking me(Yes some breeds have an advantage) I don't need a firearm to subdue it. Standard belts have an asp, night stick or baton. They also carry some sort of pepper spray, I have yet to meet a dog besides a trained security or police dog like or put up with CS gas or pepper spray. Don't mention the taser, officer may argue he would be worried of missing... ok what is the departments escalation of force policy? a dog less than 3 feet in front of you will be hit if you fire at it. I would rather hit it with that and risk it dieing of a heart attack, loose and eye or just have issues and be able to say I tried instead of having to be labled and have this is my career jacket forever. It would also be easy to handle in the PR section of things. I have been in situations with dogs and to me this situation shows a greivous lack of training and failure on the officers part on many levels.

As for restriciting officers power of the law or ability to enforce the law... Something bad happened, that is what happens today. I would rather them find a little girl, catch a crook and maybe I have some property damage. Property can be replaced and insurance can be used. A "mistake" like this though shows that officers are either ill equiped(not the case I have seen SLCPD) or ill prepared to be put in situations like that. No attempt to use a lesser action was implemented. Could the officer been hurt, does a dog run really fast, yes and yes but that is just failure to train on how to react. The officer had a higher percentage of being killed jumping the fence to get in the yard then he would have beeing attacked bythe dog.

Fatal dog attacks in the United States are a small percentage of the relatively common occurrences of dog bites. While at least 4.5 – 4.7 million Americans (2%) are bitten by dogs every year, only about 0.0002% of these (less than 0.00001% of the U.S. population) result in death, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which published a special report on the subject in 2000
 
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redrussell

Active Member
I made it sound like the dog was just property, that was not my intention at all. Property was ment like; he broke my fence or dented my car in hot pursuit. The Animal being legally confined and in its home should have been taken into consideration by the officer. This isn't just a simple thought process situation. The overall concept and thought process of the officer is also a consideration. As was said a smarter and harder person is needed to be an officer. I have had soldiers that were not fit to stay in the Army say they will just be cops and I always cringe at the thought of my life and property being under their protection.
 
D

Deleted member 12904

Guest
I know I'm going to sound like a huge dick.

how many people have been killed from not wearing seat belts? For the better good our choice to use one has been removed.
how many peoples lives have been ruined due to illness and the lack of health insurance? For the better good we now do not have a choice.
how many people have been killed by firearms? For the better good our rights are slowly being taken away.

The list of these goes on and on. You can find hundreds of bad endings for every freedom that is taken away from us. I don't want little girls being kidnapped and killed but I also know how easy it is to flex and bend laws and I hate to see law enforcement enter my property with the only suspicion or reason being a missing person in the area that doesn't respond to verbal calls.

By these same grounds if law enforcement wanted to search my property and could not get a warrant it seems silly easy to come up with reasons to legally enter without my permission. By the same grounds they could legally search any vehicle In The area of a missing person without permission?


I'm asking where is the line? I'm just a dumb hick but from what I have read recently in the law this officer did not have a legal right to enter the property.
 
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LT.

Well-Known Member
Location
Los Alamos, New Mexico
UT410-

I appreciate your thoughts and have given them some time to sink in. Officers are expected to make the right decisions at the drop of a hat. And yes, their decisions will be arm chair quarterbacked for weeks, months, and years to come. Deadly force incidents are the most looked at and for good reason. Someone, or something has given their life for deadly force. There are some elements and conditions that have to be present for deadly force to be authorized. Four elements are: ability, opportunity, imminent jeopardy, and preclusion. There also has to be one condition present. Self defense, defensive of others. The officer can claim self defense or even defense of others in this case. But, all four of the elements must be present, and they were not. Ability is questionable, where the dog may or may not have the capacity to kill the officer. Opportunity means favorable circumstances. I believe this is doubtful. Imminent jeopardy was also questionable but, could be there if the distance was close enough. The real issue is preclusion. Did the officer have no other choice or, was another option not available to him. This is the real kicker here. Was leaving not an option, was a lesser force not available, we may never know but, i believe there were other options available to him.

You cannot start a search assuming the worst as your LEO friend stated. You take the facts given to you and leave the opinions out. Including your own thoughts. You cannot form what if hypothesis from the start. This is when officers make wrong decisions due to their mind jumping ahead of themselves. Just because you have seen a five year old in horrible circumstances does not transcribe into this event.

We also have an issue of reasonable officers perception. This officer lacked reasonable preception once he fired his duty weapon and shot a 110 pound dog. Because not all four elements of deadly force were present. All four must be present for deadly force to be authorized.

I train my troops endlessly on deadly force because you have fractions of a second to make the decision and a life time to re-live it. A life time to wonder what if, and a life time to wonder if you did the right thing. Opinions are going to be made and question the officer to the end. I believe the officer was as wrong as could be. 4th amendment was violated, and the elements for deadly force were not all present. The officer acted inappropriately and it truly is a shame and tragic incident. Our own APD has had its share of bad shootings in the last few years as well. I save the incidents and use them for my personal training scenarios to make us better.

I believe the officer was about 60% right. Unfortunately in deadly force scenarios that is not enough. 100% is the standard for such an event.

LT.
 
jackjoh

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
LT. said:
UT410-

I appreciate your thoughts and have given them some time to sink in. Officers are expected to make the right decisions at the drop of a hat. And yes, their decisions will be arm chair quarterbacked for weeks, months, and years to come. Deadly force incidents are the most looked at and for good reason. Someone, or something has given their life for deadly force. There are some elements and conditions that have to be present for deadly force to be authorized. Four elements are: ability, opportunity, imminent jeopardy, and preclusion. There also has to be one condition present. Self defense, defensive of others. The officer can claim self defense or even defense of others in this case. But, all four of the elements must be present, and they were not. Ability is questionable, where the dog may or may not have the capacity to kill the officer. Opportunity means favorable circumstances. I believe this is doubtful. Imminent jeopardy was also questionable but, could be there if the distance was close enough. The real issue is preclusion. Did the officer have no other choice or, was another option not available to him. This is the real kicker here. Was leaving not an option, was a lesser force not available, we may never know but, i believe there were other options available to him.

You cannot start a search assuming the worst as your LEO friend stated. You take the facts given to you and leave the opinions out. Including your own thoughts. You cannot form what if hypothesis from the start. This is when officers make wrong decisions due to their mind jumping ahead of themselves. Just because you have seen a five year old in horrible circumstances does not transcribe into this event.

We also have an issue of reasonable officers perception. This officer lacked reasonable preception once he fired his duty weapon and shot a 110 pound dog. Because not all four elements of deadly force were present. All four must be present for deadly force to be authorized.

I train my troops endlessly on deadly force because you have fractions of a second to make the decision and a life time to re-live it. A life time to wonder what if, and a life time to wonder if you did the right thing. Opinions are going to be made and question the officer to the end. I believe the officer was as wrong as could be. 4th amendment was violated, and the elements for deadly force were not all present. The officer acted inappropriately and it truly is a shame and tragic incident. Our own APD has had its share of bad shootings in the last few years as well. I save the incidents and use them for my personal training scenarios to make us better.

I believe the officer was about 60% right. Unfortunately in deadly force scenarios that is not enough. 100% is the standard for such an event.

LT.
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Very well said, I agree and anyone that has been in actual combat or gun drawn situation will also agree.
 
Marsh99

Marsh99

Lover of all things Toyota
Location
Mantua UT
I have my father in-law who is a city Attorney in New Mexico, in town with me these week.I asked his opinion on this case and he explained that there are 2 main questions to look at both being 4 amendment issues: Was the search legal? and next was the seizure of the man's property (the dog) legal? In his opinion of of this case there is a lot of gray area, and where there is gray area that's when money payouts come in to play.

My father in-law gave me example of a case he personally had: The police were in a hot pursuit chase when a criminal ran through a random house, and the police followed through house on a hot pursuit warrant-less search. While they were running through the house a cat jumped on an officer and was thrown against a wall, and died of broken spine. In that case the city ended up having to pay out over $50,000 to the Cat owners family.

I understand that it is easy for us to say that the police have to make decisions in a hurry, but how far will we allow our rights to be taken for safety?

Ben Franklin said it best,"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 
jeeper

jeeper

I live my life 1 dumpster at a time
Location
So Jo, Ut
My buddy is a SLCP officer.. He told me today that they shot another dog this week. This was a pitbull on the west side. Not 1 complaint.
 
jeeper

jeeper

I live my life 1 dumpster at a time
Location
So Jo, Ut
flexyfool said:
And here is the video from Filer Idaho that it mentions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCKO7xi8ZeY
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I think dogs that act like this should be shot, followed by a bullet to the owner. This one is slightly tough, as the officer could have stayed in his car.. but a kid walking down the street could have been the next person to be by, and they would have not had protection. Dogs belong in yards, behind fences. free roaming dogs are no good for anyone.
 
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LT.

Well-Known Member
Location
Los Alamos, New Mexico
jeeper said:
I think dogs that act like this should be shot, followed by a bullet to the owner.
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Really?! What the hell is wrong with you?! Shooting a person over their dog being out? Have you never made a mistake? Would you want to be shot over your dumbass mistake?

Fuc%#@g $hitty thing to say. The owner was distraught over his dog being shot. Of course they are going to be difficult to deal with.

LT.
 
jeeper

jeeper

I live my life 1 dumpster at a time
Location
So Jo, Ut
LT. said:
Really?! What the hell is wrong with you?! Shooting a person over their dog being out? Have you never made a mistake? Would you want to be shot over your dumbass mistake?

Fuc%#@g $hitty thing to say. The owner was distraught over his dog being shot. Of course they are going to be difficult to deal with.

LT.
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Take a chill pill there buddy, like I REALLY expect to shoot a human for their inability to be a proper pet owner..

However, this isn't just a couple of dogs that are "being out".. These were aggressive dogs that were being a danger to everyone else in the neighborhood. Any well mannered, well cared for dog would not act this way. This is a product of pure neglect.

My personal experience includes being attacked by aggressive dogs while IN MY OWN YARD! It's easy to get mad and want harm on the dog it'self, but in reality the dog does not know better and has not been trained. The owners are the real culprits in a bad dog situation. I have been to court over a dog, and have had animal control over MANY times over the same dog. The owner has been to court many times besides in my case.. What does the court do? a few fines, and sends him on his way. In my case they told him the next time would be jail.. Next time came, he got a fine. There is nothing a person can do to be rid of bad animals and bad owners, except through back door illegal ways.. So it makes us the bad guys!

What would you suggest a person does when owners have been confronted, animal control is involved (and very tired of the owner and dog), courts have been involved, yet nothing is done?? Should it be my job to put up with the terrorist dog, just so that I am not called a jerk? That's a bunch of BS.

I imagine you would see things different if you were the one who was being attacked, or heaven forbid, your child was attacked by one of these dogs that were simply being out..
 
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