Snakes 10/2

[Houndoc]

Well Said V-Dawg!

Issues that need to be remembered are that magazine articles and web sites are useless once someone is on a trail. Even if you have read the article or seen a map before leaving I doubt that will clear all confusion on the ground.
(Don't take that to mean those resources are useless- they are a great place to start and should be encouraged!)

Maps at the trail head, posted photos of legal ve illegal routes at the same location and blocked abused by-passes sound like the logical steps.

Obviously this cannot be done for every trail in the state, but on the best known areas it could make a huge difference.

 

[James K]

it sounds to me like some of you are defending going off trail.

igronance is not an excuse.

there are signs that say what to expect and what is required. I think people just don't care.

the signs...............http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=7861&highlight=constrictor+sign

 

[V-DAWG]

it sounds to me like some of you are defending going off trail.

igronance is not an excuse.

there are signs that say what to expect and what is required. I think people just don't care.

the signs...............http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=7861&highlight=constrictor+sign

Not defending it, just stating why I think it is a problem, and how to correct it rather than just flaming everyone.

Ignorance is not an excuse, so what is your suggestion to help people overcome the ignorance?

You are probably correct that some people don't care. I have been wheeling with people who purposefully leave the trail to seek out a more difficult line, and with the opposite type who attempt to avoid a line. These people make it very difficult for a first timer on a trail to know where to go, that is all I am saying.

This person did not tip over by "staying on the trail"
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4973


Trails changing is an issue everywhere, and RS has been a topic for a couple years, but I don't think much has been done to correct it.
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=5344&highlight=constrictor

July 13, 2003

The trail has been subject to ALOT of change since the first time we ran it months ago, such is life, its a great trail, pave it as much as you want, flash flooding occurs....

 

[scoutabout]

I don't think anyone is defending going off trail. We're trying to develop a dialogue regarding how we can educate people (beyond a reasonable doubt) to the point where they know the difference between "the trail" and "illegal lines or bypasses".

The work done to put in the signs was an awesome step! It's something I think we should repeat in as many high traffic areas as we can (AF canyon for example). We definitely should not belittle the effort put forth to install the signs. In fact, we should praise the effort and initiative, I think the signs definitely help. However, the signs don't inform drivers where the illegal lines and bypasses are.

Right now, we're counting on the drivers to find that out for themselves. As of today, the only definitive resource we can provide to educate the new drivers is our own personal expertise. This means we'd have to send an experienced driver out with every new driver every time they tackle a new-to-them trail.

Of course, it's not practical as we all know. We can't count on new drivers seeking out an experienced driver for knowledge. Even if we could count on the new drivers, we don't have enough bodies to provide a "guide" driver for every newbie.

We are working in the right direction, but it only takes a few disrespectful drivers to cut a new bypass, injure someone, or get a trail closed. While advocating a "know before you go" policy is a good procedure, it can't be our only method.

How do we make sure that there are no excuses when driving off trail?

We've thrown out some ideas in this thread (and I'm sure TONS of other ideas have been floated in other threads and email lists). Let's keep the discussion moving forward.

A couple more thoughts off the top of my head:

Assign a "trail guide" to RS/CON that is out there every Saturday to politely "enforce" strick adherence to the trail (of course, man power is the limiting factor here).

Produce highly accurate, small scale maps to note the actual trail and any illegal bypasses (the limiter here is money, and how would we get the maps into the hands of the people who need them?).

The U4WDA is already stretched pretty thin in terms of man power. If anyone has an idea or wants to run forward with an idea presented here or elsewhere, do it! Or come to the next U4WDA board meeting and we can talk about it, and offer any support we can. Since RME has adopted the trail, maybe an RME delegation would be appropriate?

From meeting and speaking with so many of you 4x4'ers on the trails, I know that there's no problem we can't solve if we pool our resources and efforts.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...This person did not tip over by "staying on the trail"
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4973

He is right in the middle of the trail... at that point the existing trail is ~20 ft wide as it has been for years...

There is a difference between dispursed use of off-trail areas (for parking, camping, etc) and driving over trees in order to make a bypass.

Trails changing is an issue everywhere, and RS has been a topic for a couple years, but I don't think much has been done to correct it.

Your right, it has been an issue... how can we educate people when the only time they show effort is to argue on the internet?

This question is for everyone...

Were you at the last BLM sponsored cleanup in the area?
What about 2004? 2003?
Have you PERSONALLY hosted or planned a service project to improve a trail in the area?

If you answered no... then start DOING YOUR PART and QUIT TELLING OTHERS HOW TO DO THEIRS

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...The U4WDA is already stretched pretty thin in terms of man power. If anyone has an idea or wants to run forward with an idea presented here or elsewhere, do it! Or come to the next U4WDA board meeting and we can talk about it, and offer any support we can. Since RME has adopted the trail, maybe an RME delegation would be appropriate?...

Agreed.... Walk the walk!

 

[V-DAWG]

He is right in the middle of the trail... at that point the existing trail is ~20 ft wide as it has been for years...

There is a difference between dispursed use of off-trail areas (for parking, camping, etc) and driving over trees in order to make a bypass.

It looks to me like he would have had to have his driver front tire on the high part of the trail to get into that position.

I understand the difference between tearing out a tree and not tearing out a tree, but a statement like you made is what is so damn confusing about the trails. So that spot is 20' wide, but others are not? Where is the center line to measure the 10' on each side? What if it is someones first time on the trail and the trees have already been ripped out? It can look as though an illegitimate bypass is the correct route after the trail has been maimed. Flame away on those tearing out the trees, but take a softer approach for those who travel the line after the bypass has been made and used multiple times. They are the future members of the clubs to help protect the land.

Your right, it has been an issue... how can we educate people when the only time they show effort is to argue on the internet?

This question is for everyone...

Were you at the last BLM sponsored cleanup in the area?

NO

What about 2004? 2003?

NO and NO

Have you PERSONALLY hosted or planned a service project to improve a trail in the area?

NO

If you answered no... then start DOING YOUR PART and QUIT TELLING OTHERS HOW TO DO THEIRS

I answered no to all of them, but I do my part. Every time I use a trail, I stay on it to the best of my knowledge. I do not leave any trash behind, and I also pack out as much as I see on the trail while I am using it. Just because I haven't shown up to a meeting, doesn't mean I am not doing my part, and it doesn't mean others are not either.

 

[Rusted]

I think the "gate" idea is interesting. Easy to install and maintain. With a something to state "travel permitted between posts only". I am sure there are many non RME users, or RME users who do not keep up with all of the topics who have and will run that trail. Posts on each side of the trail at the common bypass areas will make it very clear where to travel, and clear to anyone who is on the trail.
Also a simple chain or rope across bypasses to let people know where to travel could help as well. I am sure that would have been plenty to help GOAT know where to travel and not to travel. I think that most people will respect that.

 

[Houndoc]

From reading this thread I see a trend that goes something like this:

Everyone agrees going off the trail is bad (duh)

Everyone agrees that what has been done so far has helped but not stopped the problem (obvious or the thread would't have stopped at the pics).

Several are still mad at each other over who is in what club or what service projects they didn't go to (stupid).

I think a certain few need to dismount the high horse and look at the problem and logical suggestions made. Membership in some club will not solve the problem (wise as it may be for protecting land use and other reasons). Logic needs to prevail. Kurt mentioned and seems to defend "20' wide" section of trail. I suspect at one point that began as a bypass of some sort. Clear as mud.

The real solution comes down to ON THE TRAIL information. Be it signs, paint, chained off areas and/or maps. Do I have the answers as to who and how to get it done? No.

But arguments over basically nothing (reread this thread, I see argument over how you agree) are pointless.

Finally, the sad reality is stupidity will always be with us.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

It looks to me like he would have had to have his driver front tire on the high part of the trail to get into that position.

The high part of that is also a trail... old mine dumpings to be exact... neither here nor there.

I understand the difference between tearing out a tree and not tearing out a tree, but a statement like you made is what is so damn confusing about the trails.

I'm not sure what is confusing... that is the way that particular trail has been for 20+ years. In fact it probably looked 10x wider when they were actively mining in the area.

So that spot is 20' wide, but others are not?

I do trust you have been on trails of differing width?

Where is the center line to measure the 10' on each side?

You tell me? I am simply stating what is there and what has been there since the last BLM road inventory and classification...

What if it is someones first time on the trail and the trees have already been ripped out?

The other wheelers should take a minute to explain the situation and then spend a couple hours (or however long neccesarry) to fix the situation. This has been done sucsesfully many times in the 5MP and other areas. I am not pointing the finger at a single person, with the exception of the one who blazed off the road and took out the trees in the first place.

Flame away on those tearing out the trees, but take a softer approach for those who travel the line after the bypass has been made and used multiple times. They are the future members of the clubs to help protect the land.

Not flaming anyone, I am offended by those that like to give suggestions on how to manage these trails without ever showing their faces at a cleanup, sign install, car removal, trail project, etc. There have been dozens advertised here on RME alone... no excuse for not making it out to one. I stand by my words that if every 4x4 enthusiast could make it out to 1 sponsored cleanup a year, we would be 10x better off than we are today, unfortunately we get about 10%

I answered no to all of them, but I do my part. Every time I use a trail, I stay on it to the best of my knowledge. I do not leave any trash behind, and I also pack out as much as I see on the trail while I am using it. Just because I haven't shown up to a meeting, doesn't mean I am not doing my part, and it doesn't mean others are not either.

Pat yourself on the back, but I humbly beg to differ. We are nothing without numbers, SUWA knows that, the Sierra club knows that, and I know that. The BLM & USFS look at everything in numbers... and when 20 4x4 users show up for National Public Lands day reporting to cleanup hundreds of square miles of desert, they get the point. The entire SL BLM office was out at the last cleanup, and they verbally took notice of the lack of 4x4 user support in the area. They know RS, they know the CON, they knew Charlies Trail, and with the stroke of a pen, they closed it.

Everyone needs to cleanup the trail that they are recreating on, that is not their "part" that is their "responsibility". To me attending service projects is also a responsibilty, a responsibility that only 10%

 

[scoutabout]

I hate to get mushy on everyone but...

It's easy for all of us to get heated because we're all so passionate about keeping our trails open and clean for everyone to enjoy. It's frustrating that we work, volunteer, raise money, and try to educate users, but there are still disrespectful people out there who are almost negating our efforts. Whether it's with your local club, U4WDA, USA-ALL, or your own group of friends, we all can make a positive difference on our public lands.

Of course, it helps to be a member of U4WDA and USA-ALL:

http://www.u4wda.org/join_us.shtml
http://www.usaall.org/membership/Membership.ASP

Until we discover the perfect solution to eliminate bypasses, keep trails clean, and educate users, we should all keep making our own positive contributions.

If you've got an idea, and/or want to be involved on the ground, come to the next U4WDA meeting and you can definitely make an impact!

The Utah 4 Wheel Drive Assocation holds it's meetings on the last Thursday of every month at 6:30pm at the Larry H. Miller Chrysler Jeep store 10905 South AutoDrive Mall in Sandy in the upstairs meeting room. Please feel free to come.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Several are still mad at each other over who is in what club or what service projects they didn't go to (stupid).

I am not mad at anyone, I just simple take comments at face value.

...I think a certain few need to dismount the high horse and look at the problem and logical suggestions made.

I think some need to get off their high horses and stop "commanding" and help...

...Membership in some club will not solve the problem (wise as it may be for protecting land use and other reasons).

I beg to differ... the U4WDA and its member clubs make HUGE improvments in trails and rec areas every year. If we had a bigger audience (members) we could spread the word about these damages, organize work parties to erase any said damage. Work with land managers to better sign the areas. Fund projects that are financially impossible at this point. The problem is education, the number 1 priority of the U4WDA is education, what is right, where is right, when is right, and what to do when you see something that isn't right.

...Logic needs to prevail...

Alright armchair quarterback, come out to a cleanup, service project, trail party, or board meeting and prevail.

...Kurt mentioned and seems to defend "20' wide" section of trail. I suspect at one point that began as a bypass of some sort. Clear as mud.

I'm not defending anything, simply pointing out the facts, but you are probably right, the trail at one time was probably horse width, since then it has changed. Apples and oranges to the situation @ the Eagles Nest on Constrictor.

...The real solution comes down to ON THE TRAIL information. Be it signs, paint, chained off areas and/or maps. Do I have the answers as to who and how to get it done? No.

I do, get involved, wether it be as an idividual, club member, club official, Associaton member, Board member, etc., and help institute these changes.

...But arguments over basically nothing (reread this thread, I see argument over how you agree) are pointless.

Agreed

...Finally, the sad reality is stupidity will always be with us.

Agreed, but if 100% of the wheelers were acting as the eyes, the ears, and the mouths of what is right.. these problems would dissolve.

It is a giant domino effect... if we can push over the first few dominos, things will change.

 

[scoutabout]

unfortunately we get about 10%

I think it's closer to 1%. We definitely have room for improvement.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I think it's closer to 1%. We definitely have room for improvement.

Your probably right, I try and be optimistic

 

[Truk]

poor GOAT. dude your thread took a nasty turn. eh? looks like you just wanted to show you fun day wheelin and look what happened. Opened a can-o-worms Anyways the jeep looks good. love the tube fenders.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

poor GOAT. dude your thread took a nasty turn. eh? looks like you just wanted to show you fun day wheelin and look what happened. Opened a can-o-worms Anyways the jeep looks good. love the tube fenders.

Yeah, good job GOAT

I truly hope you don't think any of this is aimed at you, you have just helped us realize the problem that exists and hopefully we can work to improve it.

Nice rig BTW

 

[GOAT]

Join the U4WDA!

Did it...now where's my sticker

"The Utah 4 Wheel Drive Assocation holds it's meetings on the last Thursday of every month at 6:30pm at the Larry H. Miller Chrysler Jeep store 10905 South AutoDrive Mall in Sandy in the upstairs meeting room. Please feel free to come."

I work across the street and will stop in.


"I truly hope you don't think any of this is aimed at you, you have just helped us realize the problem that exists and hopefully we can work to improve it."

No hurt feelings here. I did get a little frustrated at first but, there are a lot of valid points being made. You (we) have it so good in UT. Back home there was only one place in San Antonio for the average joe to legally wheel and it was a former city dump that up until a few years ago was used by gang members to dispose of bodies. We cleaned it up and ran off the thugs and we still had to organize to keep it open. I am not afraid of getting dirty and will help on cleanup days but, I am afraid that 5MP is a long way out there and alot goes on that is out of our control. Information is power and there is a lack of real trail info on the NET. In Texas, I had to pay to join several clubs to get into private ranches and trail runs but the quality of people was light years ahead of the open runs. Thanks for the comps and PM the next time you guys head out.

flamesuit off -Marcus

 

[waynehartwig]

Forgive my ignorance, but if this area is not open access/ travel, who got the permit to build a trail in the first place?

I was pondering that same question today...

If this trail was created as a hard core trail, then the rating should have been a little higher, and there should be stipulation on the sign saying no vehicle without front and rear lockers and 35" + tires allowed, and it should be enforced. On the difficult part of the trail, like the ones pictured, there should have been some type of "gate" specifying that travel is only allowed between the gates.

I don't think you can get any higher than a 5, which is what CON is rated, and RS is rated a 3.5, which is also a valid rating for the trail. The signs tell you flat out what is required of your rig to do the trail, where to go for information and tread lightly (in more words). It's ignorant as all hell to go out there, uninformed and blatently ignore the signs. Obviously a well traveled bypass is difficult to tell if it is legal or not, but flat out running over a tree is a OBVIOUS illegal bypass, and that's where it starts.

The sport is growing. The Wasatch Front's population is growing, and there is no where close for people to satisfy their wheeling desire. This might be a lame analogy, but look at skateboarding/ rollerblading in the 90's and before. Everyone wanted to make it illegal on the streets. Well, where the hell were they supposed to go? Now there are skateparks all over the Salt Lake Valley that are free for their use. Where are the wheelers supposed to go? They hear about these trails, so they head out there, and they are with a bunch of people who have no idea about the history of the trail, or where it is "officially" designed to be traveled, because they are so worn it looks like it could be any of the bypasses or the obstacle itself. Should they write down the website on the trail marker, then go back home and research it before traveling the trail as someone slightly suggested?

You want to do your part, next time you see someone taking off the designated trail, tell them to stop it! I can't count how many times I've blocked someone off in my rig when catching them off the trail, getting and and bitching them out. I just did it again labor day weekend in Moab! And those a'holes were Moab natives!!!! Debbie (white and purple TJ I think), Tony (YJ with red white and blue wheels) and Steve (dark blue rubicon) I believe? ANyway....

Keep in mind, not everyone is as hardcore as you, so some of those obstacles don't even look do-able to them. It is more logical to them to think the bypass is the correct route, and the obstacle is only being used by the ignorant buggy driver going off the trail. (Calm down buggy owners, I was joking)

I agree...I've been there...

My suggestion is to get some fence posts, drive them into the ground at every point there is a bypass that shouldn't have been used, and make a sign saying stay between the posts. If it is not an open travel area, let the Forest Service know of the plan, and ask their assistance in enforcing the restriction. Set up the fence posts on a weekday, and I will be there to help, since I am stuck working weekends. Plan the trail repair in advance, and I will request the time off to come and help.

Problem with that, is the area that started this offtopic debate is all rock, makes it hard to drive a fence post in the ground

 

[waynehartwig]

it sounds to me like some of you are defending going off trail.

igronance is not an excuse.

there are signs that say what to expect and what is required. I think people just don't care.

the signs...............http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=7861&highlight=constrictor+sign

I completely agree....

 

[waynehartwig]

I think the "gate" idea is interesting. Easy to install and maintain. With a something to state "travel permitted between posts only". I am sure there are many non RME users, or RME users who do not keep up with all of the topics who have and will run that trail. Posts on each side of the trail at the common bypass areas will make it very clear where to travel, and clear to anyone who is on the trail.
Also a simple chain or rope across bypasses to let people know where to travel could help as well. I am sure that would have been plenty to help GOAT know where to travel and not to travel. I think that most people will respect that.

What makes you think they will respect it when they won't respect the signs that are already there? It's real obvious running over the top of a tree is going off the trail and people do it.