SUWA takes Canyonlands ORV ban request to Washington

[JL Rockies]

The land is mine. Why should I compromise my rights to it away?

 

[jackjoh]

If everyone that posted to this site had been to the U4 meeting we would not have to talk about doing something we would be doing something. It is not that we need x percent doing something we need those that are speaking up on this forum doing something and others will follow. I don't care if they call it RME, USA-ALL, BRC, or U4WDA. U4 has succeeded as an event organizer for over 20 years and they will continue as such because there are people that have that interest and they stay active. U4 has not been able to attract enough Land Use/Education people although some have tried. We do not have a sugar daddy like SUWA's Hansjorg Wyss to hire people so unless the people that are interested in land use band together into one or two strong groups all we have are individual efforts that will go nowhere as history has proven. Kurt said it right when he suggested people join local social group clubs with mandatory membership in U4, USA-ALL, AND BRC. But basically the talkers need to get off their collective rear ends and stop talking and start doing. You can't tell me that people that spend anywhere from 2 to 3 days a week, working on OHV"s, going on trips, etc. don't have the time.

 

[anderson750]

If everyone that posted to this site had been to the U4 meeting we would not have to talk about doing something we would be doing something. It is not that we need x percent doing something we need those that are speaking up on this forum doing something and others will follow. I don't care if they call it RME, USA-ALL, BRC, or U4WDA. U4 has succeeded as an event organizer for over 20 years and they will continue as such because there are people that have that interest and they stay active. U4 has not been able to attract enough Land Use/Education people although some have tried. We do not have a sugar daddy like SUWA's Hansjorg Wyss to hire people so unless the people that are interested in land use band together into one or two strong groups all we have are individual efforts that will go nowhere as history has proven. Kurt said it right when he suggested people join local social group clubs with mandatory membership in U4, USA-ALL, AND BRC. But basically the talkers need to get off their collective rear ends and stop talking and start doing. You can't tell me that people that spend anywhere from 2 to 3 days a week, working on OHV"s, going on trips, etc. don't have the time.

Great comments Jack. There are just a small percentage of people who are pulling the wagon and they are getting tired. It is high time for more people to get out of the wagon and start pulling. Even if it is only pulled for 10 feet, it will help out those who are already pulling the wagon.

I think the first and most important step is to get involved with a local club. Local clubs are like the foot soldiers in this fight. They are the ones who take local interest in their trails and work on them, maintain them and safeguard them from abuse. There are some great examples of clubs out there. Red Rock 4 wheelers for full size; CCOHVA, SPEAR, SEUOHVA for ATV; Sage Riders, UTMA for motorcycles.

It does not matter whether you can put 1 hour a day or 1 hour a month.......every little bit helps.

 

[Addiction]

Great comments Jack. There are just a small percentage of people who are pulling the wagon and they are getting tired. It is high time for more people to get out of the wagon and start pulling. Even if it is only pulled for 10 feet, it will help out those who are already pulling the wagon.

I think the first and most important step is to get involved with a local club. Local clubs are like the foot soldiers in this fight. They are the ones who take local interest in their trails and work on them, maintain them and safeguard them from abuse. There are some great examples of clubs out there. Red Rock 4 wheelers for full size; CCOHVA, SPEAR, SEUOHVA for ATV; Sage Riders, UTMA for motorcycles.

It does not matter whether you can put 1 hour a day or 1 hour a month.......every little bit helps.

Hey man, hope you are doing well. I have an idea that I am brain storming on. Its all about grassroots marketing, I have been kicking an idea off a couple local guys. I would really like to walk you through the concept and get your opinion, (1/2 percent concept, it will make more since when I can explain). When you get back off the mountain call me. I will be traveling out of the country the 5 thru the 15, but give me a call.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...U4 has not been able to attract enough Land Use/Education people although some have tried...

Start with the current board before you insist others come save the day Jack. There is enough manpower present at each of those meetings to make some major progress if appropriated accordingly. 80% land use/advocacy/education, 10% administrative, 10% other fluff, hats, shirts, pins, newsletter, etc.

Answer a few easy questions for me.

1. What percent of the U4 BOD is an active Tread Lightly Trainer?
2. What percent of the U4 BOD is actively planning a service project for the 2011 season?
3. What percent of the U4 BOD is actively working on a land use project? Upcoming RMP? MVP? Education?

...We do not have a sugar daddy like SUWA's Hansjorg Wyss to hire people so unless the people that are interested in land use band together into one or two strong groups all we have are individual efforts that will go nowhere as history has proven...

It doesn't take much money (if any at all) to plan service projects nor to work on land use related projects. It takes a redirection of effort and a clarification of the purpose of the U4WDA. Is it a social club itself or is it an actual Association of clubs both at a ground level and in long term plans such as working in a non-litigious method with land managers to keep routes open.

...he suggested people join local social group clubs with mandatory membership in U4, USA-ALL, AND BRC. But basically the talkers need to get off their collective rear ends and stop talking and start doing....

Give them something to do, with the exception of NPLD which is carried by the clubs, what service projects are on U4's calendar for 2011? What organized letter writing campaigns. I've seen ret32's mapping project, what kind of support is that getting from the BOD? From there, show people results, show them what there money is doing. What tangible item can you show a member from his money in the last 6 months?

I don't consider Take Back Utah a viable solution, while some feel that is a meaningful use of effort I personally think it is a viable position of individuals to take, not the states Association. Members of our own OHV community think it is a misguided effort at best ("redneck parade" was a I term I heard a few nights ago). I fully understand the point behind it but if lawmakers need a reminder of how many users there are, send them a letter with the number of registered OHV's in the state

 

[JL Rockies]

"The federal government was not created to be the owner of the land; it was created expressly to get the "right of soil" out of the hands of a king – that is, out of the hands of government."

 

[jackjoh]

Start with the current board before you insist others come save the day Jack. There is enough manpower present at each of those meetings to make some major progress if appropriated accordingly. 80% land use/advocacy/education, 10% administrative, 10% other fluff, hats, shirts, pins, newsletter, etc.
"80% land use/advocacy/education, 10% administrative, 10% other fluff" who said these were our priorities, you can only do what you have people willing to do. Right now we are 80% events or fluff as you put it, 10% land use and 10% administrative. We desire to go more heavily into land use but we need the people first.
Answer a few easy questions for me.

1. What percent of the U4 BOD is an active Tread Lightly Trainer? I do not know of any but so what that is not a necessity until after we get the people.
2. What percent of the U4 BOD is actively planning a service project for the 2011 season?
3. What percent of the U4 BOD is actively working on a land use project? Upcoming RMP? MVP? Education?All board members are actively working with their individual clubs on NPLD. All other service projects are club run and U4 assisted. What gives anyone the idea that things only happen when U4 starts them? All associations depend on individual clubs to take on events and projects with the support of the association. That is why the association is formed to assist with planning, advertising, and some management duties.
It doesn't take much money (if any at all) to plan service projects nor to work on land use related projects. It takes a redirection of effort and a clarification of the purpose of the U4WDA. Is it a social club itself or is it an actual Association of clubs both at a ground level and in long term plans such as working in a non-litigious method with land managers to keep routes open. Yes to a certain degree, there are some things an association can do that a small club can not.

Give them something to do, with the exception of NPLD which is carried by the clubs, what service projects are on U4's calendar for 2011? Explained above.What organized letter writing campaigns.At this time we are coordinating with Amy Grannat of Cal 4 to present a NEPA/Letter Writing Seminar between Aug 15 and Sept. 15 of 2011. I've seen ret32's mapping project, what kind of support is that getting from the BOD? 100%support but since it is in southern Utah some of that is moral. From there, show people results, show them what there money is doing. What tangible item can you show a member from his money in the last 6 months?We have supported, advertised and assisted at just about every off road event in the state plus the Grand Junction Jeep show in Colorado, members have gone to every off road affected event put on by government agencies, members have specifically talked with the offices of Sen Hatch, Rep. Chaffetz, Rep. Bishop and Juan Palma head of the BLM in Utah, a visit was made to Deeda Seed of SUWA to get input on mapping in Utah, a visit was planned with Bob Abbey that was cancelled and turned into a visit to Hatch's office. This is what I can think of off the top of my head. By the way that seems like quite a bit to me for $10 a year.

I don't consider Take Back Utah a viable solution, while some feel that is a meaningful use of effort I personally think it is a viable position of individuals to take, not the states Association. Members of our own OHV community think it is a misguided effort at best ("redneck parade" was a I term I heard a few nights ago). Did Heidi say that? I fully understand the point behind it but if lawmakers need a reminder of how many users there are, send them a letter with the number of registered OHV's in the state

Just like everything else in life U4 is a work in progress and has a long way to go to be what some envision including myself but we are what we are and we are getting better. We just need more help or money.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I do not know of any but so what that is not a necessity until after we get the people.

Get what people? Does U4 not have members and clubs that could benefit from this and other education? Each board member could host on Tread Lightly awareness class once a year and just scratch the surface of the OHV community.

What gives anyone the idea that things only happen when U4 starts them? All associations depend on individual clubs to take on events and projects with the support of the association. That is why the association is formed to assist with planning, advertising, and some management duties.

Club service projects (NPLD or other) have historically happened with or without the involvement of the U4WDA. Plan large scale projects that are beyond the scope of an individual club. Its naive to assume clubs take responsibility for RMP and MVP type projects rather they should be handled by the association for the benefit of the greater OHV community. Remove those responsibilities from U4 and what is the point of their existence? Advertise the events/projects clubs are doing? RME can handle that and it won't be the week of the event Its time for the state association to work on state level issues, not fluff.

Did Heidi say that?

Would you call Heidi a member of the OHV community? Of course she didn't say that, it came from an active OHV (both full-size and ATV) gentleman in a dinner conversation with myself and several other RME members. Its beside the point, I'm not hear to argue the validity of the Take Back Utah idea, just that U4WDA shouldn't participate in any litigous projects, be it actual litigation, fed versus state debates, etc. As soon as you breach that line you diminish your ability to work with land managers. In a 'close to SLC' ranger district we found that rangers responded in near identical chills to Usa-All as they did to groups like Save Our Canyons, etc. U4 should promote education, stewardship and advocacy, let the others work their angles. I personally believe we have more to gain by protecting what we have than fighting in court over what we lost.

Just like everything else in life U4 is a work in progress and has a long way to go to be what some envision including myself but we are what we are and we are getting better. We just need more help or money.

Realize that U4 has and will continue to lose volunteers at the hands of mis-direction and a blurry scope on behalf of the U4. I've made no secret that my leaving was 100% related to the diverging missions that apparently I shared with the majority on the board. Point in case is the number of current board members working on anything land-use related outside of NPLD projects with their clubs, you've proven my point that the tangible 'work' is being performed by few not the majority.

Sarge asked me once what he would have to do to get me to come help out with the U4, I jokingly said start from scratch with a new BOD of which new BOD applicants apply for their position not sit down in it.

"Stand up, move one seat to the left... enjoy your new position"

Lets be real, we could go round and round of what could, should, is, and isn't being done, I'm trying to offer some ideas for a more streamlined U4, your welcome to take them or dismiss them as such. If your interested in reading more suggestions, there are plenty here:
http://www.rme4x4.com/showpost.php?p=613197&postcount=23
http://www.rme4x4.com/showpost.php?p=613611&postcount=34
http://www.rme4x4.com/showthread.php?t=65931

 

[jackjoh]

Thanks Kurt, we will just keep on trying. Lets all hope things get better but hope without work doesn't accomplish much.

 

[Stacey]

Good come back buddy Where did I suggest that this type of community would be willing to submit to 9 million acres of additional wilderness? I stated that we need to be able to talk with them, as Jack has done, because politicians listen to them and, as you've said, they have money to toss around, much more than we do. If we have open communication with them, is that bad for us? I don't see it as such, but who knows, maybe I'm just a smart ass.

Amazing, you attack me for posting what I believe because its not the way you think, then you act suprised when it comes back at you. Great.....

Time after time SUWA has demonstrated they are not in the compromising business, they are in the fund raising business. There is no negotiating with them nor do I think U4 should be acting as the body who can broker any deals with SUWA.

I have never said I'm against compromise, just not compromising with SUWA. They are a for profit company. The people, in my opinion who should be approached with the intent of creating any compromise is the BLM, Forest Service, Congressmen, etc. They are the real decision makers, not SUWA. As far as I know, SUWA can not vote in congress, or make policies, yes they have influence and recommend policies to those who then recommend the policies to the real power holders (hope that makes sense) but they are not the deal sealers. The one thing about truely compromising, each side must be willing to give something up - again, SUWA does not compromise, but politicians do.

As was mentioned by someone earlier in this thread, SUWA watches this board just as we watch theirs. This means there is no practical reason to be discussing ideas on here to combat the eco nazis.

To set the record straight, I believe there does not need to be a road to every corner of the country and I am all for limited wilderness - just spent 3 days hiking in a designated wilderness area in Wyoming. I just don't think SUWA should be the force to recommend which areas are wilderness, again, they are nothing more than a for profit company pretending to be a steward for wilderness.

My .02

 

[jackjoh]

Stacy, I agree with most of this but will continue to talk to all parties. But as they say "Talk is cheap".

 

[anderson750]

Time after time SUWA has demonstrated they are not in the compromising business, they are in the fund raising business. There is no negotiating with them

This statement is very true Stacey and I have seen it first hand during the Emery lands council meetings. When the process was started over a year ago, Brook Williams was attending many of the meetings, as was I on behalf of USA-All and several other user groups. About 6 month into the process when there were discussions of what direction Emery County was going to in regards to what they were going to propose for routes, wilderness, etc. SUWA left the table.......they did not even stick around for any negotiations. They saw that they were not going to get their way and left.

Fast forward a few months and Brook shows up to a meeting where the Wilderness Society was giving a presentation to the lands council. During the discussion, the focus turned to SUWA and why they have all of a sudden shown up again after several months of meetings and the words straight out of Brook's mouth were that SUWA was going to wait and see what Emery County put together then they would respond..........or as everyone who knows how they operate.......they were going to file a lawsuit or use their political power to tear the thing apart in Washington. If they were really interested in seeing something they could live with out of Emery County they would have stayed at the table.

We all know the old saying........Actions speak louder than words. SUWA may talk about negotiating, but their actions do not in any way, shape or form indicate that they will negotiate.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Thanks Kurt, we will just keep on trying. Lets all hope things get better but hope without work doesn't accomplish much.

That is my point Jack, you have work... its just not aimed in the right direction.

...I just don't think SUWA should be the force to recommend which areas are wilderness, again, they are nothing more than a for profit company pretending to be a steward for wilderness.

While I share your sediment that the ideal of Wilderness is a better fundraiser than then actual designated Wilderness, I think the majority of SUWA members at large do in fact appreciate the true meaning of Wilderness at it is naive at best to underestimate their time on the ground inventorying said Wilderness. Now I wholeheartedly disagree with the outcome and criteria for their Wilderness inventory but even the courts have been unwilling to land slide either way as to the original intent of Wilderness, thus they are playing their hand and we have all our cards on the table.

...We all know the old saying........Actions speak louder than words. SUWA may talk about negotiating, but their actions do not in any way, shape or form indicate that they will negotiate.

Lets be real, they don't really have much reason as of current to negotiate when it comes to actual Wilderness designations. They are not winning the battle with a landslide 10.x million acre Wilderness but through defacto WSA designations, Land with Wilderness Characteristics designations and other similar progressions, we are the ones losing ground, not them.

 

[anderson750]

Lets be real, they don't really have much reason as of current to negotiate when it comes to actual Wilderness designations. They are not winning the battle with a landslide 10.x million acre Wilderness but through defacto WSA designations, Land with Wilderness Characteristics designations and other similar progressions, we are the ones losing ground, not them.

You are correct. But that leaves me to have to ask the question as to why you have said that you feel there is room for compromise with SUWA.

I've personally met with Heidi Macintosh and several reps from the Wilderness Society in the last few months, while it might be blind optimism, I truly thing there is room for some actual compromise on behalf of both sides.

They know their claims to wilderness designation will not hold water and that is the reason why we are seeing things like Secraterial order 3310 popping up. They are trying to find ways around Congress and negotiating with user groups is not part of their plan.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

You are correct. But that leaves me to have to ask the question as to why you have said that you feel there is room for compromise with SUWA.

Admitted blind optimism with a zeal to try something different. I don't think we (at least in the last 10 years) have brought a Wilderness proposal to the table that includes the lands that do in fact have Wilderness characteristic lands. Cherry stem routes, cherry stem mines and other historic interests, true Wilderness. Force the hand, force the issue. In my opinion a large scale Wilderness bill in Utah is one and done, be it 3.x million acres are 10.x million acres... its not happening twice.

 

[anderson750]

I don't think we (at least in the last 10 years) have brought a Wilderness proposal to the table that includes the lands that do in fact have Wilderness characteristic lands. Cherry stem routes, cherry stem mines and other historic interests, true Wilderness. Force the hand, force the issue. In my opinion a large scale Wilderness bill in Utah is one and done, be it 3.x million acres are 10.x million acres... its not happening twice.

I agree with you 100% on this. If a statewide bill could be pulled off, it would be a monumental feat.

 

[jackjoh]

OK, it has been talked about now what will happen? Let all the user groups present our own wilderness bill and see what happens.

 

[anderson750]

OK, it has been talked about now what will happen? Let all the user groups present our own wilderness bill and see what happens.

One of the reasons I think this will have a hard time happening on a state level is the fact that unless you have every county onboard and involved, it will go absolutely nowhere. Right now there are several counties that do not want to have anything to do with it.