This probably won't go over well, but....

73fj55

I Know Turd Ferguson
History is NEVER completely factual, it is ALWAYS written with at least a small amount of bias on the part of the writer. :D

I've read "The End Of Science" (mostly about science reaching its limits, not dying off) , I may as well check out "The End of Faith". :D

History does have its biases, so is there such a thing as true history? The argument of the bible comes to mind. How many interpretations of the bible are there? Is there one that comes closest to what really happened and what was really said.

Another good book, easy read, "Genesis and the Big Bang" by Gerald Schroeder.

If you are into podcasts, Dr. Maxie Burch gives a really goos series entitled The History of Christianity. Non-denominational, as far as Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, Catholic, etc....just straight up History.
 

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
Well, I would argue that you have to take a bunch of sources and average them. Especially with antiquity, where you have a lot of scholars quoting wholesale from their predecessors, which in some cases repeats inaccuracies. First sources are always best, but not always available, and even then it's a good idea to know something about the writer to come up with a reasonable, logical conclusion regarding the veracity of their writing. :D And THAT is why most people prefer the Discovery Channel hahahha
 

73fj55

I Know Turd Ferguson
Well, I would argue that you have to take a bunch of sources and average them. Especially with antiquity, where you have a lot of scholars quoting wholesale from their predecessors, which in some cases repeats inaccuracies. First sources are always best, but not always available, and even then it's a good idea to know something about the writer to come up with a reasonable, logical conclusion regarding the veracity of their writing. :D And THAT is why most people prefer the Discovery Channel hahahha


There is some type of historical/cognitive averaging we have to think about when taking into account what previous scholars have said. Some of these scholars would agree and disagree with there mentors.

There is a lot to take into account when thinking about history. In my first post, presentism is the largerst hurdle that some people cannot seem to understand and eventually jump over.
 

Utahcryogenics

Formerly "Beerman"
Location
Murray
My cheap two cents.....Not a well thought out intellectual or measured statement, but one off the "top of my head" if you will.

IMHO I feel that historically people have needed some form of an answer to the who, what, where, and why's of the world. People are a LOT smarter now than we ever were then. People have better resources now, than we had then, etc. etc. etc.

Back then people needed each other more so than we do now. If a large rich man owned property, had many other men backing him, and they all believed in the same system, and preached a greater good, it sold and grew. Business men needed growth and higher profits back then just like they do now. People banded together because they needed to have the necessities in life, or to gather the necessities easier. Especially women. Women were not as strong or self sufficient then as they are now, so many of them had to cling to a man in order to find comfort, family and a future. Women (back then) werent allowed to be free willed and create their own beliefs. They were advised what to believe by the men in their lives be that their father, husband, etc. So in layman terms women were forced into whatever their dominant man figure in their life chose for them.

So get a group of people, tell them that we are stronger in numbers, tell them that if they are part of your group they will be better off, and sell them the things that people want to hear. It was like giving money away. It was easy to say yes and be a part of their group back then....

Communication is about the CREATION of shared meaning. Ask any COMM 1010 teacher that and he/she will agree with you. When two or more people generate a creation of shared meaning the sky is the limit be it that religion, theory, or whatever.

Now a days people arent as willing to buy. Shift your paradigm for a moment. What if I knocked on your door one day (During dinner of course) and told you that I am from the church of the sun. You invited me in, and we talked about the sun. I told you that the sun was responsible for all life, and without the sun we couldnt have life. It is responsible for nourishment, plant and animal growth, heat, energy, etc. and without the sun everything and everyone would die. You can see, and feel the sun, and you cant look directly at it without it burning your eyes. The sun is there and you cant deny it.
You would probably say, yeah sure, the sun, the sun rocks! Then I asked you to come with me, join my group, and worship the sun with me. That is where you would kindly tell me to get the f*ck out of your house.

Then I knock on your door every couple of weeks and ask for money. LOL!

People research "stuff" a lot more, and need more evidence in order to commit. How many of us research everything before we buy? Hell it could be a toaster, and some of us are reading reviews on Amazon before we give Target our $14.99. Still though, people are willing to give money to a cause or a group because the people before them taught them this, or because they are ok with purchasing prayers.

What I said about the sun makes more sense than anyone from any church has ever tried to sell me. I dont believe in imaginary best friends that we only talk to when we need something, preferably at night near our bedside on our knees. I certainly dont believe in killing people for something I cant prove, and I certainly dont believe in flying spaghetti monsters. People though in general still feel like they need something to look forward to. No one finds comfort knowing that they are just going to be a pile of rotting flesh, 6 feet under, in a shiny casket once they die. They need to hear about shiny happiness, angels, and cars that dont require gas or oil in order to wake up in the morning. GAY!

Finally, since this is a rock crawling board, I will end with this. I feel that if people put the same effort or research into their religious beliefs as they do their next set of tires, or gears, or lockers, etc. We would have a lot more Atheists. I watch the news every day, and I have yet to read or hear about that "Damned group of Atheists who molested children, blew up a building, killed a village of non-Atheists", etc. It just isnt going to happen. Some of the smartest people in the world are Atheists and they certainly didnt become succesful because they prayed about it.

All in all (IMHO) The world would be a much better place if we had more Atheists in it. It would certainly lessen the HOMICIDE rate.
 
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Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
Blaming an atheist isn't nearly as fun as blaming a religious group. I can just see the news now.
In news tonight Sam Smith was arrested for killing his wife, He has no religion, no weapons, no pets, no political views, no sense of style, no family, no friends, no favorite author, no favorite movie, no sense of humor, nothing of note in his character, no distinguishing features, no known occupation, we know nothing about him, and nothing will become of this story.

Stay tuned for a cute story about a water skiing squirrel!
 

Utahcryogenics

Formerly "Beerman"
Location
Murray
I will stay tuned, I gotta see this damn squirrel. :D

Believe me, if a group of Atheists were caught plotting the destruction of an empire, and they were caught, many of our Xtian friends would say, "They wouldnt have this problem if they had jes us in their lives". :rofl:

I keep telling people I have jes us in my life. He is my gradner and he does a damn good job. :D
 

Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
I will stay tuned, I gotta see this damn squirrel. :D

Believe me, if a group of Atheists were caught plotting the destruction of an empire, and they were caught, many of our Xtian friends would say, "They wouldnt have this problem if they had jes us in their lives". :rofl:

I keep telling people I have jes us in my life. He is my gradner and he does a damn good job. :D

Reminds me of when I worked out at Micron, I walked by a co-worker's cube and in big letters he had "Je sus is coming Tuesday @ 10:00AM". I guess he did miracles with a VAX cluster. :rofl:
 

StrobeNGH

no user title
Location
WB
All in all (IMHO) The world would be a much better place if we had more Atheists in it. It would certainly lessen the HOMICIDE rate.

That is categorically false.

You might have a point if you argue that there would be less wars without religion, but to say there would be less homicides is just not true.

We talk about this subject at great length at work. Although I have very little experience with homicides, our office has literally hundreds of years of cumulative experience . . .

We have learned that if anything, religion deadens homicidal tendencies.
People remark that the belief in a supreme being watching over them, and holding them accountable for their actions, does more to curb violent tendencies than the threat of legal sanctions/punishment.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
That is categorically false.

You might have a point if you argue that there would be less wars without religion, but to say there would be less homicides is just not true.

We talk about this subject at great length at work. Although I have very little experience with homicides, our office has literally hundreds of years of cumulative experience . . .

We have learned that if anything, religion deadens homicidal tendencies.
People remark that the belief in a supreme being watching over them, and holding them accountable for their actions, does more to curb violent tendencies than the threat of legal sanctions/punishment.

What if they believe that they will be "forgiven"? There are just to many variables and no real way to say that religious vs. non-religious people would be more compelled to commit a major crime including homicide. It's to subjective and varies from one persons life to the next, including mental stability in each subject.

To assume such a scenario would mean that every religious person holds the same values to life as the next. Same with 'atheists'. Everybody is different and to group people by their fundamental beliefs is a flaw in itself.
 

Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
Yeah, but it's hard to argue against "religious" people having a built-in prohibition AGAINST homicide, IN GENERAL.

The major religions all hold murder to be wrong.... deviant sects notwithstanding.
 

StrobeNGH

no user title
Location
WB
What if they believe that they will be "forgiven"? There are just to many variables and no real way to say that religious vs. non-religious people would be more compelled to commit a major crime including homicide. It's to subjective and varies from one persons life to the next, including mental stability in each subject.

To assume such a scenario would mean that every religious person holds the same values to life as the next. Same with 'atheists'. Everybody is different and to group people by their fundamental beliefs is a flaw in itself.

Forgiveness is usually not in their minds when the acts occur. It is an afterthought.


Please remember that I am speaking from experience, and not in hypothetical terms:

We always get together over lunch and talk shop (the poor people who happen to sit near us and overhear some of our stories . . .).

From our experience, we have found that the really violent ones do not have a belief in a supreme being.
Also, people who murder (pre-meditated) usually don't believe in a God.

Those who do believe in God will commit Ag Assaults, but they usually stop themselves short of murder.
Other homicides (non-pre-meditated) do not have any pattern to them. They just happen, and the beliefs of the people who commit them aren't usually a factor.

The murderers who believe in God usually develop that belief after the crime has occurred as they seek forgiveness/redemption.

Now, if you want to read about someone who is evil personified, look up Troy Kell.
This man scares me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Kell
 

Utahcryogenics

Formerly "Beerman"
Location
Murray
Just curious, what was the last thing the terrorists said before the plane hit the twin towers? I believe it was something to the nature of "Praise god".

What you are saying about religious wars is true. I was using more of a blanket statement in that religion has been the all time leader of murder. I categorize 1 man killing another, for whatever reason, a homicide.

The very word by definition states "the act of killing another human being".

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide

The acceptance of god aftermath point you are trying to make is really not measurable. That would assume someone had asked the murderer if they believed in god or went to church on a regular basis before committing the act. Keep in mind, when you are in prison, it isnt a 5 star resort. Boredom, the fear of dying, or dying alone, or dying without cause, etc. is enough for a prisoner to turn the god when his or her life has hit rock bottom. However if they had a choice between reading the "good book" or a porno mag chances are they would indulge their senses on the more attractive fleshes on man kind.

It holds the same assumptions that rap music makes black teenagers want to become gang bangers.

Now I will agree that religion does more good than bad in this day and age, but it all comes at a cost. Show me a church that isnt asking for money, and then show me the same church doing the same acts of public charity.
The Mormon church is the number 1 giver of goods in the world, great, but it is also the highest power and most financially wealthy organization in the world too. Its easy for me to give you ten bucks if I have 10 million.

On a different note, if you have religion in your life, and it makes you happy, then that is awesome, and I dont take that away from anyone. I dont look at any of my friends or family members differently because of their religious choices, and I wish the same were true in return (Oh well).

Finding anything that grants you pleasure in life or meaning without breaking the laws of man, or hurting others is certainly an accomplishment. I chose to be Atheist because I prefer reason and logic over faith and ignorance. That was my choice, and it makes me happy.

Bleh, arguing religion is like winning a gold medal in the special Olympics.....

I dont want to slam anyone or take anything away from anyone, just do some sole searching and just make sure that the god you are worshiping is really the answer you are looking for. Life is too short to not question everything thrown at you.
 

Lifelong Jeeper

Well-Known Member
Location
Murray
All interesting points of view. I respect your rights to not believe and thank you for respecting my rights to the contrary. I have three quick points...

1. I submit that the majority of crime committed (ignoring extremists), whether by an atheist or a member of a religion, is done with a self serving purpose in mind. You cannot hold the person's God accountable for the persons actions. God teaches something and then leaves it up the person to do it or not; believe it or not. You cannot confuse a person's fulfillment of their Free Agency, a God given right, as a mandate from the religion. I believe that a man will be punished/rewarded for his own sins/actions and not for the faults, shortcomings, or teachings of any other person. Personal accountability is a failing trait in our modern society. It is always somebody else's fault and I believe that this moral degradation is an increasingly weaker link in our communities. The longer we permit this to happen, I believe, the more crime and suffering we will have to witness and survive.

2. Atheism, IMO dare I say, is a religion. :eek::ugh: It is a base on which your beliefs are established. It guides you in a certain path or direction in life.

3. One of two things will happen after I die. If my religion is correct, my religious points of view will prevail where I will hopefully be engrossed in God's ever giving light and love. I will hopefully hear the words, "Well done my good and faithful servant." Or, your religion, atheism, will be correct and I will have the mortal light in my eyes snuffed out into an eternal darkness. If that happens, though I won’t be surprised since I will be dead, my works as a religious person in mortality won't have been in vain since it provided me with a moral code by which to live wherein I found happiness while I was alive. I prefer to hope for something more.
 
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