Changes to trails @ EJS

[ewander]

This is life. Every organization that tries to get something done ends up having blinders on that support their specific organization. RR4W are a great organization that want to keep the trails open and own easter in Moab. It's all good by me.

Man, building a muscle car sure looks appealing every time I get on this Land Use forum. Maybe something with four doors and room for the dog.

 

[Todd Adams]

Here is a section from the BLM RECREATION PERMIT ADMINISTRATION handbook http://www.ut.blm.gov/Recreation/CostRecovery/Handbook/chapter1a.htm


E. Organized Group Activity and Event Use: Organized group/event permits are for group outdoor recreation activities or events which are neither commercial nor competitive. The authorized officer determines when a permit is required based on planning decisions, resource concerns, potential user conflicts, or public health and safety issues. A group is loosely defined as more than one person participating in a recreation activity or event. The threshold size of a group requiring a permit would be impossible to establish on a national basis. The threshold, if any, must be determined for each area (for example, 10 people in a sensitive riparian area may constitute an organized group, but a less sensitive upland area may be able to handle 200 people without the need for special management). Thresholds must be based upon planning, resource

concerns, potential user conflicts, or public health and safety. Field Offices are encouraged to develop thresholds through land use planning for when permits are required for organized groups and events for specific types of recreation activities, land areas, or resource settings.

Other examples of groups or events that may require a permit include a large scout camp out, a fraternity activity, a large family reunion held at a BLM recreation site or participating in recreation activities on public lands, or a dual sport event. Before issuing a SRP for an activity or group event, consider if it is primarily recreational in nature. If not, it may be more appropriate to authorize the activity or event as a land use permit.

This gives the BLM folks in Moab, or any other District, the autority to put restrictions on the EJS as well as other groups. With groups like SUWA trying to shut the EJS and our trails down Dave and the rest of the RR4W's have their work cut out for them with the new 5 year permit.

Even with the EJS permit how does the BLM control other users?

 

[drtsqrl]

Quote: I guess the bottom line is this. If you and your friends get together and do a trail ride you are organized. It used to be 50 vehicle needed a permit anything under that did not. That has changed to “Any Organized Group”.

Actually, the Moab field office is still using the 50 vehicle limit before requiring a permit. I was in the BLM office just a couple weeks ago, and specifically asked that question. However, they said it was "50 vehicles for an entire organized event", not just 50 rigs per trail. All of this is open to interpretation. For example, what constitutes an "event"? And what is "organized"? When I asked these questions, the BLM guy just smiled and shrugged his shoulders!

I'm sure that this policy will be revised under the new Resource Management Plan due for Moab next year, and I can't imagine that it will be less restrictive.

Jeff

 

[Inyon98]

First of all, I would like to thank everybody who stands by the RR4W. I'm sorry to see that there are people who apparently think outrageous things about us (aside from the Greenies), but believe it or not, we are about trying to decide what's best for wheelers everywhere, not just Moab locals.

We are doing the best with what we have. We already talked about the pros and cons to changing EJS, and like Jeff said, the majority of the vote was against it. As you can see on this thread, there's some opposition about it. Personally, I was for changing. There is only so much we can come up with; the rest is up to the voting members.

Finally, I have the opportunity to be the wife of the current Land Use Officer of the club. It's UNBELIEVABLE, the work he has to do, with the permits, working with lawsuits against us to close trails, etc. It is NOT a fun job. I am able to appreciate the work that goes on behind the scenes that make it possible for all of you to even COME HERE! So why don't you show a little more loyalty, not nessicarily to the club, but to us as a wheeling community. I do respect your opinions; what I won't respect are false accusations and thinking it's ok to make judgements, ESPECIALLY if you don't know everything. Think about what's done to allow you to enjoy this sport.

 

[Greg]

First of all, I would like to thank everybody who stands by the RR4W. I'm sorry to see that there are people who apparently think outrageous things about us (aside from the Greenies), but believe it or not, we are about trying to decide what's best for wheelers everywhere, not just Moab locals.

We are doing the best with what we have. We already talked about the pros and cons to changing EJS, and like Jeff said, the majority of the vote was against it. As you can see on this thread, there's some opposition about it. Personally, I was for changing. There is only so much we can come up with; the rest is up to the voting members.

Finally, I have the opportunity to be the wife of the current Land Use Officer of the club. It's UNBELIEVABLE, the work he has to do, with the permits, working with lawsuits against us to close trails, etc. It is NOT a fun job. I am able to appreciate the work that goes on behind the scenes that make it possible for all of you to even COME HERE! So why don't you show a little more loyalty, not nessicarily to the club, but to us as a wheeling community. I do respect your opinions; what I won't respect are false accusations and thinking it's ok to make judgements, ESPECIALLY if you don't know everything. Think about what's done to allow you to enjoy this sport.

Amen...

 

[rockdog]

OK, my .02 worth. As someone who has only been to easter safari since 2000. I've enjoyed myself each year we've went as a family. The things that have left a negative impact on me ,have usually been linked to alcohol use by others. We as a small group ( usually about 5 rigs ).We try to plan around the organised group runs. Let's face it, some people are drawn to the carnival atmospher(sp) that safari has become. I like it and hate it to differant degrees. I like getting to see what other poor people like myself have done with their rigs. Don't care to much about the guy's rigs that have all the money in the world to throw at theirs. You want to change the safari? Don't allow alcohol on the trail or on the streets. Enforce this hard like they have done at little sahara. I know a lot of you on this board drink. No offense intended. You have every right. But if you come to moab on safari week to party ,do everybody a favor and drink responsibly. Ok end of rant.

 

[mesha]

My family friends and I go to Moab to wheel. Yes, we have fun and party if we want to. We decided a couple years ago to just go down the first weekend. We still have fun and get a lot of wheeling in. There are people there and still cool rigs to look at. There usually aren't too many raging drunkards. Organized trails do a good job of keeping there participants free of alcohol on the trail. They however can't control everyone else. I saw a lot more sheriffs on the trails last year especially when it got closer to big saturday. I like this idea quite a bit. Trails should be free of inhibiting substances! Camp should not, as long as people aren't wandering into my camp with thier pants down(scary story) I think the RRFW have there work cut out for them. I appreciate thier help and the work the do. I don't usually go on the organized trails, but still try to pay my fee to help the effort. If you are going to wheel then go a different weekend. The kids will be there whenever spring brake is no matter when the jeep safari is. Change the date or leave the date it is all the same to me. RRfW has a better handle on it then I do.

 

[James K]

I know a lot of you on this board drink. No offense intended. You have every right. But if you come to moab on safari week to party ,do everybody a favor and drink responsibly. Ok end of rant.

I only see it one way. DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE PERIOD. save your drinking for camp.

 

[fourdoorjeep]

What does the BLM do with the $40,000 plus they get from RR4WD? I would like know what the BLM actual spends that money on, or does it go to a slush fund that get used by whom ever the administrator of that fund feels needs it. Do not tell me it goes to keeping the trails open, I would like to see something like a spreadsheet.
Todd Adams wrote, “Non EJS participants have gotten out of hand and something needs to be done even to take as drastic steps as these”. A blanket statement like that will make most of the people on this forum upset. I go down over Easter and do not pay the fees to ride with RR4WD trail run. I do not feel that I am part of the problem. The main reason I do not go on an organized trail with the RR4WD club is it takes to long to do a trail with that large of a group. If everyone who went to Moab sign up for a trail run with the RR4WD club, it would at least triple the amount of runs, trail leaders, and congestion.
Instead of closing the trail all day on big Saturday, try closing it until the Easter Safari starts the trail. On trails that come back on the same road as it started, open it after the Safari starts the trail then close it when they start back down. For example that may work on the Moab rim because most of the congestion is from the start to the top (chair lift) where a lot of people turn around.
I have seen trail leaders be really rude in telling people that the RR4WD club has the right of way on the trails. Many people just do not know. I have had to explain it to some people after the trail leader left. I think they should have a letter from the BLM and RR4WD club explaining why the have the right of way and what the rules are during Easter Safari. It would not hurt to have some tread lightly info on it.
I agree with most people, that if RR4WD moves the event the only good would be that there can be some dissociation with Easter and RR4WD, however you will never get complete dissociation. I think it is better to have a lot of good people down there with the few idiots than a few good people and a few idiots. People will still come to Moab over Easter weekend. If people are breaking the law (DUI, public intoxication, to much noise) write tickets or send them of to jail.

 

[Shawn]

BTW if you think that the trail closures can’t work I will remind you that we have the police helicopters that we as trail leaders can call in. Last year an individual was arrested and handcuffed (I was witness to this) on Poison Spider Mesa Trail who decided to argue with the trail leader. He had informed the trail leader he had the right to make the EJS trail wait as he passed. One quick call and the sheriff had him in handcuffs. I heard he was intoxicated as well but it shows what kind of response we get from the authorities.

Ok, Todd I have known and respected you for years, don't get me wrong but this statement is just stupid. You are acting like the RR4W have "The Power" You are acting just like all the other idiots that think THEY have the right a way. This is Public Land and we as the Public should be able to use it. You can advise people not to use it, but setting down a statement that these trails will be close to the public is just going to get ugly.

It appears in the upper statement that the individual went to jail due to his drinking NOT due to him being a stupid wheeler. You can call in all the copters you want, but if someone is NOT violating any laws why waste the copters time?

I too have given up on EJS, ONLY due to the crowds.

 

[Todd Adams]

You are acting like the RR4W have "The Power" You are acting just like all the other idiots that think THEY have the right a way. This is Public Land and we as the Public should be able to use it.

Shawn,
Are you trying to say that when an event like the EJS is being run that the permit holder has no more rights than the idiot blocking the way on the trail?
If you have been following this thread then I think we have tried to make it clear that the BLM is calling the shots not RR4W. The BLM does have the power. Maybe they will not grant the next 5 year permit and all this will be moot.
Just because I am in favor of being able to lead a trail without the hassles of other vehicle blocking the way like it was 10 years ago does not seem to be unreasonable to me. As I stated this will have an impact on what we do on the days when not leading a trail. I will take the restrictions over the hassles.

 

[Shawn]

Shawn,
Are you trying to say that when an event like the EJS is being run that the permit holder has no more rights than the idiot blocking the way on the trail? And are you are also telling me that you have no respect for the group responsible for those trails.

When you are on public land,,, then ,,, yes. The permit should only give you the right to hold such an event... Am I wrong?

Where did the whole respect come from? Are YOU reading into things? The way that You come across is very defensive, You act like it is Your way and no other. Givin all the envolvment that You have been in over the last million years, this comes across as quite a surprise to me.

Not picking a fight, I just read into the first post as You and the RR4Wers are on some kind of power trip and the We as the public better stay out of the way.

 

[Shawn]

Shawn,
Just because I am in favor of being able to lead a trail without the hassles of other vehicle blocking the way like it was 10 years ago does not seem to be unreasonable to me. As I stated this will have an impact on what we do on the days when not leading a trail. I will take the restrictions over the hassles.

Since you edited your post before I could rear it... I couldn't agree more. I feel that if the riff raff was cleaned up, I would come back and I'm sure many others would as well.

I'm also very gratefull to ALL MEMBERS of the RR4W club and the donated time they spend making our trails what they are today.

 

[Todd Adams]

Since you edited your post before I could rear it... I couldn't agree more. I feel that if the riff raff was cleaned up, I would come back and I'm sure many others would as well.

I'm also very gratefull to ALL MEMBERS of the RR4W club and the donated time they spend making our trails what they are today.

Sorry Shawn I read something in your post that was not there. You are just too damn fast with the reply.
Todd

 

[Todd Adams]

Not picking a fight, I just read into the first post as You and the RR4Wers are on some kind of power trip and the We as the public better stay out of the way.

Not at all. I just would like to eliminate the confrontations along the trail that have become more frequent.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

What does the BLM do with the $40,000 plus they get from RR4WD? I would like know what the BLM actual spends that money on, or does it go to a slush fund that get used by whom ever the administrator of that fund feels needs it. Do not tell me it goes to keeping the trails open, I would like to see something like a spreadsheet.

Then call the BLM office in Moab and request the info, don't expect us to justify the money our ours that THEY spend.

Instead of closing the trail all day on big Saturday, try closing it until the Easter Safari starts the trail. On trails that come back on the same road as it started, open it after the Safari starts the trail then close it when they start back down. For example that may work on the Moab rim because most of the congestion is from the start to the top (chair lift) where a lot of people turn around.

They have done this in the past (including last year on Moab Rim).

 

[Hickey]

Ok, Todd I have known and respected you for years, don't get me wrong but this statement is just stupid. You are acting like the RR4W have "The Power" You are acting just like all the other idiots that think THEY have the right a way. This is Public Land and we as the Public should be able to use it. You can advise people not to use it, but setting down a statement that these trails will be close to the public is just going to get ugly.

It appears in the upper statement that the individual went to jail due to his drinking NOT due to him being a stupid wheeler. You can call in all the copters you want, but if someone is NOT violating any laws why waste the copters time?

I too have given up on EJS, ONLY due to the crowds.

Shawn pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue. I still think it would be better to move the date to May.

 

[ewander]

Hey, if RR4W were to stop right now and not try to handle this issue all trails in Moab would closed tomorrow. I love RR4W and fully support them.

Let's just be quiet now and do what they tell us to do.

 

[EZRhino]

PUL-eeese, you expect me to believe that they are going to use a $$$$$ UHP 'chopper to swoop down and 'cuff some nitwit that gets mouthy to a trail leader? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. Any idea how much it costs per hour to fly a UHP 'chopper? I don't but I know it isn't what the cost of a ticket and night in jail is worth!!

OK, what are the problems? Basically too many people. That pretty much sums it up.

Would moving it to May help? Yes. That way the sping break crowd and the dedicated safari participants wold be somewhat seperated. That way RR4W can throw their arms up and say, "it ain't our problem, we didn't invite them. Gather the posse."

It's too bad that so many or so few idiots can screw up everything for those of us that can behave.

I doubt moving it to May will be the silverbullet, but I can't see it making matters worse.

EZ

 

[muleskinner]

Shawn said it well IMO. The permit allows your group to run the trail, not to close it.