jmaxj
This sucks!!!!
- Location
- were ever i feel i need to be.....
EZRhino said:
amen........
but i have the UHP chopper and the park rangers issue tickets and arrest people over EJS
Changes to trails @ EJS
- Thread starter Todd Adams
- Start date
amen........
but i have the UHP chopper and the park rangers issue tickets and arrest people over EJS
fourdoorjeep
Registered User
- Location
- Clearfield
cruiseroutfit said:
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kirk86CJ
Registered User
- Location
- Riverton, Ut
I am curious about something. If the RR4W club buys this permit for $40K and says that gives them exclusive right to the trails for the two weeks, why couldn't the Sierra Club Raise $1.1M (40K x 26) and have "exlusive" right to the trails all year.
Isn't this what environmental groups are doing to ranchers by buying up grazing permits just to keep the ranchers from using the land?
It kinda seems like once you start down this road, it could bite us all.
Kirk
Isn't this what environmental groups are doing to ranchers by buying up grazing permits just to keep the ranchers from using the land?
It kinda seems like once you start down this road, it could bite us all.
Kirk
muleskinner
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Enoch, UT
kirk86CJ said:
Exactly :sick:
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
fourdoorjeep said:
Do you know where all your income tax went last year?
Do you know where all your sales tax went last year?
Do you know where all your 911 surcharges went last year?
Do you know where all your gas tax went last year?
Do you know where all your National Park Entrance Fees went last year?
Do you know where your auto registration went last year?
Do you know where your recration managment fees (ie: AF Canyon) went last year?
Neither do I. I assume that the BLM puts the money in their general budget, just as they do with all the other money they collect in the area (other events, SFRA, camping, etc) But like I said, I am not too worried, they charge a flat rate person per day fee as they have for years, nothing changing there.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
kirk86CJ said:
Read...
They are not "buying a permit", they are simply paying the "per person/per day" fee mandated by the BLM. And they are not getting it for "two weeks", simply a single Saturday, and only six trails at that.
This IS NOT a new concept, there have been alot of similar closures on PUBLIC LANDS for events, races, marathons, etc.
I feel like we are arguing over Main Street in SLC
greenjeep
Cause it's green, duh!
- Location
- Moab Local!
ewander said:
Unfortunatly there is WAY more truth in this statement than any of you even know!!!!!!!!!
Many of you are aware of the lawsuit concerning the Strike Ravine trail, but how many of you are aware that so far that case has cost the RR4Ws almost $10,000 in less than a year. Or that we have a similar "trail cutting through state sold and now private property" issue on the Flat Iron Mesa trail. Or that if the private property on top of Moab Rim is sold to an anti-recreationalist group, we will most likely face an even bigger lawsuit than we are now handeling!
Also,
I doubt if very many of you are aware, but in order for the BLM to approve of any trail to be used by jeepers there must be an Envirnmental Assesment (EA) done to the area of land the trail runs through to determine the effect motorized vehicles will have on the local ecosystem. And I imagine even fewer of you know that many of the trails in Moab had there last EAs done in 1985 and that those EAs only covered a 20 year span, therefore they will need to be redone in 2005. The proplem is EACH of those EAs cost $50,000!! And because the RR4Ws are the group applying for the permit, it is the RR4Ws who will have to pay for these EAs to be done, this could easily approach the $500,000 mark. If we don't pay for the EAs, the BLM has ever right to PERMINATLY CLOSE DOWN THE TRAILS with the expired EAs, not just to the RR4Ws or EJS, but CLOSE THEM TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now how do you feel about supporting the RR4Ws?
Every person that registers for Safrari pays to help us keep the Moab trails open. If you don't want to go with a registered group during EJS, there are other ways to support the club, check out, http://greenjeep.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=other&action=display&num=1102394450 to see about some other ways to support us in keeping YOUR trails open.
David Adams
RR4W Land Use Officer
- Location
- Bountiful, land of rocks
greenjeep said:
GOOD INFO!!!!
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
greenjeep said:
Well informed, thanks David!
olywrestle
Duct Tape
- Location
- Syracuse, Utah
greenjeep said:Unfortunatly there is WAY more truth in this statement than any of you even know!!!!!!!!!
...PERMINATLY CLOSE DOWN THE TRAILS with the expired EAs, not just to the RR4Ws or EJS, but CLOSE THEM TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now how do you feel about supporting the RR4Ws?
Count on my support now, I had no idea that the RR4W put out this much money on keeping our trails open. THANK YOU!!!!
fourdoorjeep
Registered User
- Location
- Clearfield
__________________
So are you saying that RR4Ws has to pay all of the cost for the EA’s? That the Land Rover group, camp Jeep, Land Cruiser, Cherokee, guide services, and many more that apply for a permit do not have to pay some of the cost of the EAs. You are talking about the 5 or so year permit the BLM gives the RR4WD to have the Safari, not the daily usage fee the BLM also requires? Doesn’t the BLM have some of the cost of the EA's in their budget? Most people that use the off pavement roads in the Moab area are not from large groups but small groups or individuals. In order to serve those people shouldn’t the BLM cover some of the cost in their budget? Their are more than 10 off pavement roads in the area, so if each road cost $50,000 that would be over a million dollars. After paying the usage fees and the 5 or so year permit fee, the RR4WDs has to pay another $500,00.00 to $1,000,000? If the RRWD is covering the whole cost of the EA’s, that is not far, all of the people who use the area should help pay. How many years would that take and how much more would you have to charge to cover that cost? Help me with your math.
I think the RR4W club does a lot of good things with the money they get for hosting the event. However I would like to know what the BLM does with the money they get. If you know where the money goes then tell, if not I will try and find out. Maybe I have it wrong, the government has and will look out for everyone’s best interest and will use the money wisely and I should not be concerned where or to whom the fees go.
Mod note: (that help?--{is that how you wanted that to appear?})
greenjeep said:
So are you saying that RR4Ws has to pay all of the cost for the EA’s? That the Land Rover group, camp Jeep, Land Cruiser, Cherokee, guide services, and many more that apply for a permit do not have to pay some of the cost of the EAs. You are talking about the 5 or so year permit the BLM gives the RR4WD to have the Safari, not the daily usage fee the BLM also requires? Doesn’t the BLM have some of the cost of the EA's in their budget? Most people that use the off pavement roads in the Moab area are not from large groups but small groups or individuals. In order to serve those people shouldn’t the BLM cover some of the cost in their budget? Their are more than 10 off pavement roads in the area, so if each road cost $50,000 that would be over a million dollars. After paying the usage fees and the 5 or so year permit fee, the RR4WDs has to pay another $500,00.00 to $1,000,000? If the RRWD is covering the whole cost of the EA’s, that is not far, all of the people who use the area should help pay. How many years would that take and how much more would you have to charge to cover that cost? Help me with your math.
cruiseroutfit said:
I think the RR4W club does a lot of good things with the money they get for hosting the event. However I would like to know what the BLM does with the money they get. If you know where the money goes then tell, if not I will try and find out. Maybe I have it wrong, the government has and will look out for everyone’s best interest and will use the money wisely and I should not be concerned where or to whom the fees go.
Mod note: (that help?--{is that how you wanted that to appear?})
fourdoorjeep said:
Please don't take this as I'm bashing, but everyone keeps saying how the RR4Wers are doing Everything. As the above statement say's, there are allot of others pitching in to help. Green Jeep you say that "There is more going on than we know"...........................WHY? Why don't we as the 4x4 community know? The more we know, the more educated we are.
If the BLM shut down the roads in Moab, and all the offroaders had to go else where, what would happen to Moab? The offroaders help keep that town alive. I'm not say anything but HELP. The BLM would be foolish to take away our trails down there, the survival of Moab counts on the money the 4x4 community bring down.
I do respect what the RR4wers do for our trails in Moab, I'm also VERY glad that we have a club as large as the RR4W in Moab helping maintain the existence of the trails. But they are not alone.
Okay, I need to clarify the Environmental Assesment thing a bit. As of right now, the BLM usually bears the cost of a new EA. There is no "set" amount for an EA, but they could cost as much as $50,000 or more. The BLM has been making noise lately suggesting that in the future the group that applies for a permit would need to cover the cost of an EA (if one is required). Once an EA is in place, it covers that trail for anyone else who seeks an event permit. This is certainly not fair, and a fight could be brewing if it goes into policy!
Usually, a new EA would be required if there are land-use policy changes (such as surely will be the case when the new RMP comes out), or significant environmental concerns. Not all of the trails in Moab will require new EA's, but it's a good bet that some will. At this time, I don't believe an EA is required for anything but an event (might be wrong here, anyone know for sure?).
Jeff
Usually, a new EA would be required if there are land-use policy changes (such as surely will be the case when the new RMP comes out), or significant environmental concerns. Not all of the trails in Moab will require new EA's, but it's a good bet that some will. At this time, I don't believe an EA is required for anything but an event (might be wrong here, anyone know for sure?).
Jeff
I hope I don't sound like an ass.....
Seriously people, we need to shut the **** up about the rules. Are rules inconvenient? Yes. Do they make our access more difficult? Yes. Do we need them in order to preserve our sport and our hobbies for ourselves and future generations? YES YES YES!! If you don't believe this then you can't see your nose in front of your face.
The only way we will ever make progress is to work together to keep the lands open. Thats obvious, but sometimes we are going to have to swallow our pride and principal and do what is required for the greater good. If you can't stay off a couple dozen trails for 1 DAY OF THE YEAR, then you are more concerned about yourself and your own private enjoyment, than the preservation of the land and our right to use it. Open your damn eyes people.
Those of you that complain that you'll use whatever trail you want during safar whether you register or not because you or your others come form xxxx miles away to do it. Well, great, but don't you think there are 51 other weeks per year that would yield a better trail experience? If you want to run a trail that bad during that week, then register for the safari. EJS, IMHO, is only about trails for those registered. I've never really had much fun on a trail during that week. It's a great event for the spectacle, but it's sucks to go wheelin and if you come from 2000 miles away to get a trail experience w/o registering then you are an idiot. What a waste of time. Come during a different week.
I go to EJS, I bring my jeep, I don't expect to get much wheelin in. But I still go because it's a fun experience. Do I wish there wasn't any trail restrictions? I sure do, but I'm willing to set aside my personal desires in order to do what is best for the community and the environment. If restricting access on that day, or that week will help relations with the blm, help community relations, help keep people on the trail etc.. I am happy to help. I can run the trail another day.
THERE HAS TO BE RULES IN PLACE AND PEOPLE TO ENFORCE THEM. THERE HAS TO BE A SYSTEM SET UP TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ON RESPONSIBLE LAND USE. IF THERE ARE NO RULES, NO ENFORCEMENT, AND NO EDUCATION THERE WILL BE NOT TRAILS. IF YOUR PERSONAL PRIDE DISALLOWS YOU FROM STAYING OFF OF A CERTAIN TRAIL ON A CERTAIN DAY IN ORDER TO FOLLOW A RULE THAT IS DESIGNED TO PROMOTE RESPONSIBLE LAND USE, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Make your check out to the Sierra Club now cause you aren't helping here.
Cody
btw, this isn't directed towards anyone in particular. I'm just in a bad mood and felt like a rant would help (it did )
Seriously people, we need to shut the **** up about the rules. Are rules inconvenient? Yes. Do they make our access more difficult? Yes. Do we need them in order to preserve our sport and our hobbies for ourselves and future generations? YES YES YES!! If you don't believe this then you can't see your nose in front of your face.
The only way we will ever make progress is to work together to keep the lands open. Thats obvious, but sometimes we are going to have to swallow our pride and principal and do what is required for the greater good. If you can't stay off a couple dozen trails for 1 DAY OF THE YEAR, then you are more concerned about yourself and your own private enjoyment, than the preservation of the land and our right to use it. Open your damn eyes people.
Those of you that complain that you'll use whatever trail you want during safar whether you register or not because you or your others come form xxxx miles away to do it. Well, great, but don't you think there are 51 other weeks per year that would yield a better trail experience? If you want to run a trail that bad during that week, then register for the safari. EJS, IMHO, is only about trails for those registered. I've never really had much fun on a trail during that week. It's a great event for the spectacle, but it's sucks to go wheelin and if you come from 2000 miles away to get a trail experience w/o registering then you are an idiot. What a waste of time. Come during a different week.
I go to EJS, I bring my jeep, I don't expect to get much wheelin in. But I still go because it's a fun experience. Do I wish there wasn't any trail restrictions? I sure do, but I'm willing to set aside my personal desires in order to do what is best for the community and the environment. If restricting access on that day, or that week will help relations with the blm, help community relations, help keep people on the trail etc.. I am happy to help. I can run the trail another day.
THERE HAS TO BE RULES IN PLACE AND PEOPLE TO ENFORCE THEM. THERE HAS TO BE A SYSTEM SET UP TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ON RESPONSIBLE LAND USE. IF THERE ARE NO RULES, NO ENFORCEMENT, AND NO EDUCATION THERE WILL BE NOT TRAILS. IF YOUR PERSONAL PRIDE DISALLOWS YOU FROM STAYING OFF OF A CERTAIN TRAIL ON A CERTAIN DAY IN ORDER TO FOLLOW A RULE THAT IS DESIGNED TO PROMOTE RESPONSIBLE LAND USE, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Make your check out to the Sierra Club now cause you aren't helping here.
Cody
btw, this isn't directed towards anyone in particular. I'm just in a bad mood and felt like a rant would help (it did
)
Milner
formerly "rckcrlr"
- Location
- Hiding behind a camera
Yea, what Cody said...
Todd Adams
Grammy's Spotter
- Location
- Salt Lake City
drtsqrl said:
To add to what Jeff said this is copied from the BLM site:
Special Recreation Permit Cost Recovery Policy
Background
The Bureau of Land Management’s Special Recreation Permit (SRP) regulations were updated and became effective on October 31, 2002. One component of this policy establishes a new system for determining cost recovery when issuing special recreation permits. Revenues collected under this regulation will be returned to the BLM to help protect public lands and benefit the recreating public.
Regulations
The new regulations state that if more than 50 hours of staff time is required for processing a permit, cost recovery of direct expenses related to the permit will be charged. If the 50-hour cost recovery threshold is anticipated to be exceeded, then recovery of costs begins with the first hour.
The provisions cover all Federal activities that convey benefits to recipients beyond those accruing to the general public. When a service provides special benefits to an identifiable recipient, beyond those that accrue to the general public, a charge will be imposed to recover the full cost to the Federal Government for providing this specific benefit.
Cost Recovery Charges
Cost recovery charges will generally be associated with new or substantially different activities or events and will be levied to compensate the Government for the costs of authorizing and administering the new use. Cost recovery fees are most likely to be applicable to large, short-term uses that require extensive environmental analysis and monitoring.
For commercial users, cost recovery charges are in addition to the fees in the national recreation fee schedule. For competitive or organized group permits that exceed the 50-hour threshold, cost recovery will be charged unless anticipated fees exceed the cost recovery charge. In that case, use fees will be charged rather than cost recovery.
Cost recovery charges will be limited to BLM’s costs of issuing the permit, including necessary environmental documentation, on-site monitoring, and permit enforcement. Charges will be based upon the actual personnel (including law enforcement), vehicle, travel/per diem, and material costs required to issue, administer, and monitor the permit. User charges will be sufficient to recover the full cost to the Federal Government and will be based on market prices. User charges will be collected in advance of, or simultaneously with, the rendering of services unless appropriations and authority are provided in advance to allow reimbursable services.
Does this help explain where the fees go?
Oh yea: what Cody said!
When we applied (Isuzu) for our permit the RR4W permit was duplicated so that we did not incur the permit set up fees. The same is true with the other 4x4 permits so the RR4W do pick up the costs for the rest of us.
OK here is something else I bet most of you did not know. Onion Creek is now closed to all except those that hold a permit. I am not sure if the signs are up but when they do go up the general public will no longer be allowed to use the traditional route following the creek bead. To access Top of the World and Rose Garden you will have to stay on the graded road. This is probably the last year even those under permit will be able to use it.
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fourdoorjeep
Registered User
- Location
- Clearfield
Cody said:
fourdoorjeep
Registered User
- Location
- Clearfield
Todd Adams said:
roktaxi
Locked Up = More Freedom
- Location
- Grand Junction CO
Too much speculation
I think it's time for me to jump in here. I was the Land Use "Officer" (now titled "Director") for the RR4W before Dave. The main coment I would like to make is that until BLM comes out with the new RMP (Resourse Management Plan) AND the new permit for 2006 is in process, we can only GUESS what may happen. Much of what Jeff (drtsqrl) has said if right on the mark except he didn't mention that we have no idea what BLM or SUWA have up their sleeves. Until they make their move, all we can do is speculate. Support should not be limited to RR4W. I would recommend supporting all the other land use organizations such as BRC, USA-ALL and U4WDA. These groups don't get involved with rumors or information that cannot be varified. One thing I believe is eventually going to happen: EJS will crumble under it's own weight if it's not managed more professionally.
Marty Avalos
I think it's time for me to jump in here. I was the Land Use "Officer" (now titled "Director") for the RR4W before Dave. The main coment I would like to make is that until BLM comes out with the new RMP (Resourse Management Plan) AND the new permit for 2006 is in process, we can only GUESS what may happen. Much of what Jeff (drtsqrl) has said if right on the mark except he didn't mention that we have no idea what BLM or SUWA have up their sleeves. Until they make their move, all we can do is speculate. Support should not be limited to RR4W. I would recommend supporting all the other land use organizations such as BRC, USA-ALL and U4WDA. These groups don't get involved with rumors or information that cannot be varified. One thing I believe is eventually going to happen: EJS will crumble under it's own weight if it's not managed more professionally.
Marty Avalos