Jeep Safari 5 year permit and EA

[JoeT]

Point : Change the date on the safari, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seems that one move would solve almost all the issues. The additional people down there for spring break is what is causing most of the overcrowding anyway.

AMEN!! Change the date and weed out the high school/colleage kids. The last thing we need is to turn EJS into a Daytona Beach.

Jeff you stated that the amount of registered EJS attendance is going down. At $50 for 1 trail that seems to be a reason. But I know that $75 for 2 trails isn't so bad. How about 1 raffle ticket per registered trail? I'm sure that last years snow won't help either. Thanks for doing some great work at keeping our trails open. Is there any way to buy MUD pins now?

 

[Steve]

Change the date on the safari, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE!

 

[fourdoorjeep]

When a trail is closed to non-paying EJS participants for all but two days of a week, trail usage will dramatically increase on those days. For example, Pritchett Canyon will be used by RR4WD on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. That means Wednesday and Friday will take most of the traffic Pritchett would have seen over a week in just two days. This will increase trail damage.

Jeff wrote “I believe the best thing that could happen is that EVERYONE who uses the trails during EJS does it as part of an official EJS run. This would drastically reduce the resource damage we now see …On many of the popular trails, less than 5 percent of the 4x4 traffic is comprised of registered, paying EJS participants”.

How could RR4WD handle such a large increase in participants? If there are 30 4X4’s in a group of registered, paying EJS participants and that is 5% of the traffic, the other 570 4X4’s would take additional 19 more groups. Large groups have more of an impact on a trail than smaller groups.

Jeff wrote “If we had more paying guests, and a lot less “tag-a-longs".

It sounds like your more interested in the money. How much money does RR4WD really get? I here most of the fees goes to pay the insurance. I would rather donate money to RR4WD and have the option to run a trail with my family and a few friends vs. being forced in a larger group. I have been a paying EJS participant many times and have enjoyed those trips. I will do it again, but I still like having a choice to run a trail in a smaller group. If there are too many 4X4’s on a trail, then have a lottery. RR4WD can get some of the tickets and the rest of the tickets should be for the people that own the land. Give an example were the BLM has closed so many trails for so many days on a major holiday. EJS started out as few families going to Moab over Easter. Then Moab chamber of commerce got involved and then RR4WD took it over. I would like to know what the percent of non-paying to paying attendance was over the last 35 years?

Jeff wrote “RR4W’s EJS registration has been in decline for several years, while non-registered attendance has skyrocketed”.

Maybe RR4WD needs to change the product to fit the needs of more EJS participants.

When is RR4WD going to make the detailed announcement? They got what the asked for from the BLM, but it seems they are not sure what to do with it. Many people have already made their itinerary for EJS 06. Lots of people are going to be very upset with RR4WD when they arrive in Moab.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Though I think changing the date will "help", it will NOT solve the problem... I personally don't think the "high school" age kids are the majority problem, and I happen to know that Jeep Safari usually doesn't fall on all the college spring breaks. How many of you "non-participating" EJS go'ers are in HS or college that gets out for Spring Break?

Point: Why should RR4W have to change THEIR date to cater to those that have monopolized on the joy they have worked to create & provide?

Like I said, I am neither for nor agains the date change at this point, I have spent HOURS talking about this with other RR4W members, EJS participants, etc. All this coming from a kid (me) who hasn't missed a EJS in the last 10 years and has NEVER been on a registered trail... I feel like a freeloader, part of the reason I joined RR4W.

People will be mad, but you cannot place the blame on RR4W. These are the same people that get mad as they show up to a trailhead that has been recently been close.... AFTER 5 years of legal battles, hearings, public rallies, etc... and they had NO clue

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...If there are 30 4X4’s in a group of registered, paying EJS participants and that is 5% of the traffic, the other 570 4X4’s would take additional 19 more groups. Large groups have more of an impact on a trail than smaller groups.

Where are you getting the 5% figure?

I would argue that "organized" large groups do NOT have more of an impact on trails, rather all the smaller groups leapfrogging & passing eachother has the impact. I agree the a group of 5 does not have as much impact as 30, but 6 groups of 5 has MORE IMHO.

...It sounds like your more interested in the money. How much money does RR4WD really get? I here most of the fees goes to pay the insurance.

ALOT of money goes to keep the trails open YEAR ROUND to EVERYONE... Without the money from EJS & RR4W, the BLM would NOT have the money to do the required EIS on current trails. Without those studies, trails can be erased in a hurry.

...If there are too many 4X4’s on a trail, then have a lottery. RR4WD can get some of the tickets and the rest of the tickets should be for the people that own the land.

Sounds like alot of work for the already under-staffed BLM. How about you propose that to them and see if they run with it. You will have just as many pissed off people that had NO clue there was a lottery in place (same people that have no clue trails are being closed )

...Give an example were the BLM has closed so many trails for so many days on a major holiday.

Give an example of equal size events hosted on BLM or other public lands... I'll give you one, the Rubicon, which is 100% closed during the Jeep Jamboree to non-participants.

...I would like to know what the percent of non-paying to paying attendance was over the last 35 years?

I bet RR4W & the BLM would love to know that number too. VERY difficult to determine.

...Maybe RR4WD needs to change the product to fit the needs of more EJS participants.

That is very debateable and I think there is some merit to that thought... There are many ways to play armchair quarterback...

...Lots of people are going to be very upset with RR4WD when they arrive in Moab.

Make that "lots of unregistered participants that don't respect the well-doing of the RR4W when they arrive in Moab"

How do you propose that RR4W get ahold of these people? I would be 100% willing to bet that a large majority of the non-participants are also NOT members of clubs, Associations, land-use groups, etc. Leaving VERY few mediums for the news to travel. In addition, is it really the RR4W's job to keep those NOT involved with their event informed with their plans? I mean it would be great if they could, but they are just like you and me, guys with regular jobs, family, etc... they arn't getting paid to do all this. This is a service, a volunteer service that has a sweet kickback of keeping trails OPEN.

 

[Cherokeester]

You know it is not a matter of respecting rr4w or the work that they do. The only thing they are going to know is that "poison spider" is closed. It is probably a trail they have done for the last ten years and they love watching everybody get stuck on the waterfall. It is not arrogance it is ignorance here. If you are going to make drastic changes people need information. As said before, pretty much everyone has the hotel reservations already made and planned. If people knew more about rr4w and what they did there would not be this problem. When it comes down to it, it is still blm land which means public land in most peoples minds.

 

[JoeT]

How do you propose that RR4W get ahold of these people? I would be 100% willing to bet that a large majority of the non-participants are also NOT members of clubs, Associations, land-use groups, etc. Leaving VERY few mediums for the news to travel. In addition, is it really the RR4W's job to keep those NOT involved with their event informed with their plans? I mean it would be great if they could, but they are just like you and me, guys with regular jobs, family, etc... they arn't getting paid to do all this. This is a service, a volunteer service that has a sweet kickback of keeping trails OPEN.

How about placing banners across Main St. between buidings? Everyone that goe's to EJS drives down Main at least once. What about banners at the Rodeo grounds? I agree that alot of these non-participants aren't members of clubs etc. So let's get in their faces so to speak about getting involved. We need to get them educated about what RR4W is doing. How many of us here have our own websites? Post info there. How many of us belong to multiple forums that allow signature lines? Post info there. I'd love to be able to buy MUD pins year round. I sell a lot of items online and would offer them as a free gift to my buyers.

 

[fourdoorjeep]

For the first year I would suggest the one-way trail system on trails like Kane Creek, Pritchett Canyon and close only the trails like the Rim, Cliffhanger when their is an official RR4WD trail run on it. Then open it back up. I would also have a meeting on Thursday or Friday night and allow RR4WD to explain themselves.

 

[Mother Deuce]

That's a good question, I'll ask at our meeting with the BLM next week when we'll be trying to get all our exclusive use questions answered. I'll let you know either way.

Just curious, but are we putting the cart before the horse here? I went to the BLM site and could not find the permit. Am I missing something in this thread or are we all still waiting to find out what, where, when and how?

Is the purpose of the permit to raise money? Is it make sure we don't overload a trail that can't be managed with the time/resources available? Or is it to show the BLM and the local community that we are dedicated to responsible land use? And what was the criteria behind selecting the restricted trails? If these questions have been answered, can somebody make it clear. I could have easily lost it in the thread.

If we are going to support or criticize this action, it seems we should know exactly what we are supporting or criticizing. At the very least, there are going to need to be plenty of well-informed supporters on both the restricted and unrestricted routes when it comes time to break the bad news to some guy who has trailered his jeep across 2 or 3 states that he ain't doin' the Rim today.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

... As said before, pretty much everyone has the hotel reservations already made and planned. If people knew more about rr4w and what they did there would not be this problem. When it comes down to it, it is still blm land which means public land in most peoples minds.

The RR4W submitted this proposal last year, it has been subject to major campaigns for and against, PUBLIC hearings, etc. There "should" be no reason that OHV users don't know about the proposal. Those of you on RME should be the last to claim you didn't know about this MONTHS ago as it was detailed in depth last year here on RME.

It comes down to inconvienience (sp?), either the non-participants feel put out because the event hosts get their way. Or the event hosts fee put out because the non-participants get the run of town. Lose-lose really...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

How about placing banners across Main St. between buidings? Everyone that goe's to EJS drives down Main at least once. What about banners at the Rodeo grounds? I agree that alot of these non-participants aren't members of clubs etc....

Banners & word of mouth in town is a little late IMHO. Banners would help, but I am sure the RR4W's are looking into trying something, but remember they are volunteers... Does the LDS church go out of their way to cater to the protesters during conference? Signs letting them know where do babble? Why should they, they have their event, RR4W has theirs...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

... I would also have a meeting on Thursday or Friday night and allow RR4WD to explain themselves.

Explain themselves? There was a 6+ month wait on the permit to get aproved with adequate public input time in the meantime... And now they should have to "explain" why they want THEIR event to run smoothly?

 

[Mother Deuce]

There "should" be no reason that OHV users don't know about the proposal. Those of you on RME should be the last to claim you didn't know about this MONTHS ago as it was detailed in depth last year here on RME...

The RME people aren't the potential problem here.

Public hearings are a great way to meet legal notice requirements, but the people who are going to cause trouble have not and never will attend a public hearing. I think most of us asking for clarification here are just trying to gauge the angle of the downside of this permit against the angle of the upside. Like I said before, I think the specifics of the permit are just a little vague at this point.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Before anyone jumps off a cliff, lets wait to see what RR4W plans to do with this permit allowances. Mabey traffic will be allowed after they are off the trail, meaning you can still do all the same trails you usually do. The effected trails are a SMALL population of trails relative to the amount of trails in Moab and the amount of actual registered (BLM permit paying) attendees.

I hope a reasonable solution can be worked out as much as the next guy, mabey moving the date is the best option? Mabey that will be worse. I guess I have the same issue I have with all major land-use related issues... no one is willing to get involved and fight the fight until they can't use "their" trail, and then they blame the group that has done the most to keep it open. Many of you fail (including myself at times) to realize how much overall impact RR4W & their EJS event has had on the greater Moab area. Trails that have stayed open, commerce that has been developed to accomodate their event, etc.

Not too many years ago (when I started going to EJS), the ratio of EJS participants to non was far different than these past few years (I think the non crowd was small last year?). However, attendence by both sides is slowing in the past few years... this in part to land closures, law enforcment participation, etc. Mabey this will all be a wash in a couple more years and the trails will be unregulated again??? Seems there are alot more getting out of "rock-crawling" and into more expedition type wheeling than vice-versa?

 

[JoeT]

Banners & word of mouth in town is a little late IMHO. Banners would help, but I am sure the RR4W's are looking into trying something, but remember they are volunteers... Does the LDS church go out of their way to cater to the protesters during conference? Signs letting them know where do babble? Why should they, they have their event, RR4W has theirs...

Sorry I meant down at EJS not downtown SLC>

 

[Mother Deuce]

Before anyone jumps off a cliff, lets wait to see what RR4W plans to do with this permit allowances.

Hey, what a great idea.

BTW...no self-respecting wheeler would ever jump off a cliff.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The RME people aren't the potential problem here.

Public hearings are a great way to meet legal notice requirements, but the people who are going to cause trouble have not and never will attend a public hearing.

I absolutely agree. On the same note, those that won't got to a public hearing obout public land... are not only hard to get ahold of, but probably make up the majority of those that will disregard any permits anyways?

Lose... lose...

I think most of us asking for clarification here are just trying to gauge the angle of the downside of this permit against the angle of the upside. Like I said before, I think the specifics of the permit are just a little vague at this point.

Agreed... Hopefully the RR4W guys can hop on here and update us...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Sorry I meant down at EJS not downtown SLC>

I know, I was just giving a apple to apple example

 

[TimB]

I vote (as if votes count here) keep the date where it is. My reasons are:

1. I have to enter my time off in a company calander well before the Safari paper comes out - I always know when to enter with Easter as the reference point.
2. I always reserve my camping spot before I leave town for the next year - again easy to do now.
3. My kids get a few days off around Easter. Since this is a "family" event I would like to bring my family. This year I will be flying them out and they will ride home with me. This more than doubles the cost of safari for me but it's important to us that they get to come.


Just wanted to insert a family guys point of view - having it near spring break was always done for family reasons. That's still the case for some of us. Give me another 5 years or so and it won't matter so much to me, but for now it's something our family does together.

 

[fourdoorjeep]

Originally Posted by Cruiseroutfit
Explain themselves? There was a 6+ month wait on the permit to get aproved with adequate public input time in the meantime... And now they should have to "explain" why they want THEIR event to run smoothly?

Is the RR4WD trail run the EJS or is RR4WD trail run a part of EJS? We could not vote at the RR4WD meetings on the permit. I did not find in the permit what RR4WD goals and objectives are in regards to the trail closing. I think they should explain why the need trails closed.