Jeep Safari 5 year permit and EA

[fourdoorjeep]

Originally Posted by cruiseroutfit:
Where are you getting the 5% figure? I would argue that "organized" large groups do NOT have more of an impact on trails, rather all the smaller groups leapfrogging & passing each other has the impact. I agree the a group of 5 does not have as much impact as 30, but 6 groups of 5 has MORE IMHO.

The 5% is in Jeff’s post. Their would be a larger impact if 6 groups of 30 were trying to leapfrogging & passing each other while trying to stay together than 30 groups of 6 doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by cruiseroutfit:
ALOT of money goes to keep the trails open YEAR ROUND to EVERYONE... Without the money from EJS & RR4W, the BLM would NOT have the money to do the required EIS on current trails. Without those studies, trails can be erased in a hurry.

That’s why I said I would rather donate $ than be forced into a large group.

Originally Posted by cruiseroutfit:
Sounds like allot of work for the already under-staffed BLM. How about you propose that to them and see if they run with it. You will have just as many pissed off people that had NO clue there was a lottery in place (same people that have no clue trails are being closed

If the trails have too much traffic on them and need to be limited, how else could you limit the amount of traffic in a fair way? It could be done like campsites. Call in your request to a third party, have a lottery and pay to play.

Originally Posted by cruiseroutfit:
Give an example of equal size events hosted on BLM or other public lands... I'll give you one, the Rubicon, which is 100% closed during the Jeep Jamboree to non-participants.

How many days is it closed off, is it during a major Holiday, has their been other groups using the trail during the same time each year that where shut out? The Rubicon is one trail; here we have several trails for a couple of weeks.

Originally Posted by cruiseroutfit:
Make that "lots of unregistered participants that don't respect the well-doing of the RR4W when they arrive in Moab"

Why do you feel that "lots of unregistered participants don't respect the well-doing of the RR4W"? Have you talked to the "lots of unregistered participants"?

 

[Mother Deuce]

Is the RR4WD trail run the EJS or is RR4WD trail run a part of EJS? We could not vote at the RR4WD meetings on the permit. I did not find in the permit what RR4WD goals and objectives are in regards to the trail closing. I think they should explain why the need trails closed.

Can you send me the permit or post a link to the permit? The link I followed didn't take me there. Thanks!

 

[fourdoorjeep]

http://www.blm.gov/utah/moab/jeep_safari_ea.html

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Is the RR4WD trail run the EJS or is RR4WD trail run a part of EJS? We could not vote at the RR4WD meetings on the permit. I did not find in the permit what RR4WD goals and objectives are in regards to the trail closing. I think they should explain why the need trails closed.

RR4W? there is no D (Drive) in their name... so I will presume we are talking about Red Rock 4 Wheelers.

The Easter Jeep Safari is an annual event hosted by the RR4W, so yes it is "their" event.

No, you could not "vote" on the permit... However the BLM hosted an extensive public input session on the permit. No one voted on the permit, rather BLM decision makers weighed the outcomes, options, etc and made a decision that was in the best interest of the land. Some may disagree with "best interest of the land"... take that up with the BLM.

Why they need the trails closed? Ever been on Pritchett on Big Saturday?

 

[TimB]

Is the RR4WD trail run the EJS or is RR4WD trail run a part of EJS? We could not vote at the RR4WD meetings on the permit. I did not find in the permit what RR4WD goals and objectives are in regards to the trail closing. I think they should explain why the need trails closed.

The RR4WD run is the Easter Jeep Safari. They are the organizers/sponsers of the event. They publish the 72 page paper that describes the event. It's all one and the same.

You could have commented on the permit the same as all other public during the comment period. I had plenty of notice and time to send my comments. Got my post card from BLM today awknowlegding the letter so I know they got it.

 

[fourdoorjeep]

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit:
The Easter Jeep Safari is an annual event hosted by the RR4W, so yes it is "their" event.

I remember the EJS in the 70’s, before RR4W ran the show. I believe it was started back in the 60’s. I feel they are a part of the EJS and it is not “their event”.

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit:
No, you could not "vote" on the permit... However the BLM hosted an extensive public input session on the permit. No one voted on the permit; rather BLM decision makers weighed the outcomes, options, etc and made a decision that was in the best interest of the land. Some may disagree with "best interest of the land"... take that up with the BLM.

I was talking about the vote RR4W had on the items in the permit request to the BLM, not the actual permit the BLM issued to RR4W. How is letting one group use the land over another in a relative same manner a disagreement with “best interest of the land”?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The 5% is in Jeff’s post.

I beleive that the 5% is total YEARLY traffic, I may be wrong but I can't imaging the Jeep Safari is only 5% of traffic in that two week period?

Their would be a larger impact if 6 groups of 30 were trying to leapfrogging & passing each other while trying to stay together than 30 groups of 6 doing the same thing.

I beg to differ, especially considering the fact that organized runs usually involve zero "leap frogging", even when in seperate groups (of 30) running the same direction. Alot of the said damage occured when small renegade groups would try and pass the larger slow moving safari groups as well as traffic approching from the opposite direction, thus the need for 1 way use also. I have been on many trips that included 1 or more groups of 30+ vehicles on a give trail... I speak from experience, not speculation.

That’s why I said I would rather donate $ than be forced into a large group.

Why wait? Give them a call... along with Usa-All, U4WDA, BRC & all the others that work to keep public land open...

If the trails have too much traffic on them and need to be limited, how else could you limit the amount of traffic in a fair way? It could be done like campsites. Call in your request to a third party, have a lottery and pay to play.

1. Life is not fair, never will be.
2. EJS has been happening for 40 years now... I think their rank in the "lotto system" if you will has shown its force.

How many days is it closed off, is it during a major Holiday, has their been other groups using the trail during the same time each year that where shut out? The Rubicon is one trail; here we have several trails for a couple of weeks.

Around a week... Sure, groups have been using the Rubicon for MANY years, I'm sure they felt more displaced than the Moab situation. Moab has 50+ trails in the vicinity.. Rubicon has ONE.

Why do you feel that "lots of unregistered participants don't respect the well-doing of the RR4W"? Have you talked to the "lots of unregistered participants"?

I don't think their failure to recognize is out of malice or ill-well. Rather, they don't realize that the very dirt they are arguing about is in many cases is only their because of RR4W and the money generated during EJS. I have talked to many, many, many wheelers over the year, I fail to see how that makes any difference?

You have to realize that RR4W is trying the "cover your ass" approach. Do realize that if the damage to trails continues in that weekend, that the BLM will deny the group permit in the future. If they deny the permit, the monies collected fail to come in to the BLM. If the BLM doesn't get that money, they can't afford to do the required EIS studies to keep trails open... You guessed the next part.

Now why would they deny the permit? Greenie groups are 100% against it, though they even admit in statment that the organized EJS event is very repectable (eco-wise). However, the amount of "rif-raff" that gets un-fairly (now I am using the F word ) associated with the event is a primary concern for many.

Ever seen the pictures groups like SUWA use on their website to rally support AGAINST EJS & motorized recreation in Moab??? You guessed it, not a single picture of a EJS official group that I can recall.

I have never been stuck behind a EJS official group because someone broke, rolled, etc. They are always quick to react, get things taken care of etc. They may move a bit slow, but that is to be expected out of a large group. I have however been stuck behind other renegade groups that jam up the trail, people coming the opposite direction, etc... More I argue with you about the merits of "needing" the ROW's, the more I realize myself the need for some type of ROW's for the week.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I remember the EJS in the 70’s, before RR4W ran the show. I believe it was started back in the 60’s. I feel they are a part of the EJS and it is not “their event”.

It started in 66', the founders of the event were also founders of the club. It was too much for the C o C to handle so they formed RR4W. I feel it is their event.

What difference does it make, were you keeping those trails open back then?

I was talking about the vote RR4W had on the items in the permit request to the BLM, not the actual permit the BLM issued to RR4W. How is letting one group use the land over another in a relative same manner a disagreement with “best interest of the land”?

Call the BLM and ask them... I can't speak for them. I can speak for the fact that if you didn't like it, then you should have written the BLM last year when they were soliciting public comments. Mabey your (and others that disagree) comments could have made the BLM think otherwise? But hell mabey your comments could have helped us keep alot of other trails/areas open that the BLM/USFS sought public input on... kind've makes you wonder.

 

[fourdoorjeep]

Originally Posted by cruiseroufit:
Why wait? Give them a call... along with Usa-All, U4WDA, BRC & all the others that work to keep public land open...

I am a member of some of those groups. When RR4W lets members vote that do not reside in Moab, I will join.

Originally Posted by cruiseroufit:What difference does it make, were you keeping those trails open back then?

kind of funny you said that, because they are closing them now?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...kind of funny you said that, because they are closing them now?

Is that a question or a comment? I will answer both ways...

Are they closing them now? Abosolutely, there are more and more attempts each year to close existing trails as well as limit the designations of areas.

If your response was a comment, then consider the fact that non-participant attendance has exponentially increased over the past years, almost side by side with the closure fights... Correlation, you bet!

Think I am opiniated... you ought to hear what Dustin Webster (Team Redbull) has to say about it...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5035003
(Parent supervison advised )

 

[Rick B]

Call the BLM and ask them... I can't speak for them. I can speak for the fact that if you didn't like it, then you should have written the BLM last year when they were soliciting public comments. Mabey your (and others that disagree) comments could have made the BLM think otherwise? But hell mabey your comments could have helped us keep alot of other trails/areas open that the BLM/USFS sought public input on... kind've makes you wonder.

The big issue here, for me at least, is that there were 3 very poor options to choose from in the EA. The one we got was by far the most preferable, but the fact that I supported it doesn't mean I agreed with the restrictions, in fact I voiced my objections to the exclusive use of trails in my written comment to the BLM, but ultimately had to support option A. To me it's like voting for president, pick what you see as the lesser of the evils and retain your right to *****. Now I'm bitching about what I don't like.

To make matters worse, RR4W is currently coming off like a bunch of amateurs right now. They appear to have no clue how this thing is supposed to work, and they are the ones who requested it. When someone asks a question, RR4W should already have the answer, "We'll get back to you on that after we discuss it with the BLM" shows a total lack of organization and planning, IMO. It's 60 days or so until the event and they don't even know how it's supposed to work. This piss poor planning is what I believe people are most frustrated with.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...To make matters worse, RR4W is currently coming off like a bunch of amateurs right now. They appear to have no clue how this thing is supposed to work, and they are the ones who requested it...

Personally, I don't think they are exhibiting any qualities of amateurs. They are all busy people that have lives outside of RME, I can imagine people exist that don't check RME every day (seeing as this thread is less than a week old). The RR4W's are wise to decide how this is all going to play out. Hopping on RME and discussing their strategy without making one, is amateur. I have a feeling they know exactly how they want it to work, but they are working on making an "official" notice.

I am glad to hear you voiced your opinion, and I know you have in the past too. Kudos to you . I do echo Jeff (drtsqrl's previous comments) regarding you joining RR4W, mabey you could have been the vote that got the event date moved?

I just get sick of defending those that do ANYTHING to keep trails open, as small as it may be. All things in life have trade-offs, some are worth taking (such as a few temp. trail closures during EJS) and others are not... If every wheeler cared to get involved on some degree.... things would be alot different for our sport. :sick:

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Just for giggles, lets look at the numbers:

Seven trails out of the ~50 in the area that are open 365 days a year.
7 trails for a total of 34 trail days during the 9 day Safari.
That represents ~8% of the total trail days (during EJS) in the Moab area.
That represents ~.000962% of the total trail days (per year).


A couple notes about that 8%
1. Are they more than 8% of the areas tourism revenue during EJS - YES
2. Do they donate more than .000962% of the yearly Search & Rescue Budget - YES
3. Does RR4W contribute more than .000962% of the areas Land-Use efforts YES
4. Is the RR4W responsible for more than .8% of the areas trails being open, IMHO - YES

This of course assuming that the trails will be closed AFTER the official EJS groups have run which I presume is NOT the case...

 

[drtsqrl]

Kurt, thank you very much for the time and effort you are taking to answer all of the questions and comments that are being asked. I wish I had the time to answer them all myself, but between work and other committments (for example, I just spent all evening at a meeting with the Nature Conservency, working to keep Moab Rim open), I barely have time to even read all the posts, much less answer them as you have! For the most part, you are right on with your answers.

I do have a couple things to pass on. RR4W had a meeting with BLM and Grand County today to discuss how best to implement and enforce the permit restrictions. More meetings will follow. I was not at the meeting, but they apparently discussed things such as radio, newspaper and TV spots, flyers in local businesses, and notices at the vendor's show. Club members, BLM officials, and law enforcement officials will be posted at various times at trailheads. There is more to be worked out, and I'm sure our land use officer (greenjeep) will pass along the info as soon as possible. Someone asked why the club didn't have this all worked out beforehand. Well, even though the permit was applied for over a year ago, it was not granted untill just a couple weeks ago! There was no way the club could work out every detail untill the permit was granted.

Secondly, there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the comment I made stating that on some trails only 5% of users are EJS participants. This comes from the BLM's own statistics (they monitor use on selected trails before, during, and after EJS). It was published in the draft Environmental Assesment that was available for public comment prior to issuing the permit. I don't remember the exact numbers, but they indicated that some trails (Moab Rim, Hells Revenge, Pritchett, Poison Spider, Gold Bar, for example) had as little as 5% "official" use during the times they were monitored.

I hope this helps to clear things up a bit.

Jeff

 

[drtsqrl]

Originally posted by fourdoorjeep:
I remember the EJS in the 70’s, before RR4W ran the show. I believe it was started back in the 60’s. I feel they are a part of the EJS and it is not “their event”.

Not their event!? Who pays thousands of dollars each year for permits and insurance? RR4W. Who organzies dozens of trail runs for each years event, and provides the leaders and gunners for those runs? RR4W. Who spends an entire year preparing for each EJS? RR4W. When the Chamber of Commerce was no longer willing to organize EJS, the RR4W were formed to take over the job. Every year, RR4W members from around the globe spend countless thousands of man hours (all on a volunteer basis) to pull off this event. I think that entitles them to certainly call it "their event".

Now, if you were to say that "Easter Jeep Safari" and RR4W is just a part of "Moab Jeep Week", you would be correct.

Unfortunately, RR4W cannot control the thousands of non-registered visitors that come to "Moab Jeep Week" each year. I really do hate the thought of it, but the best thing that could happen for the sake of our trails (and ultimately, that is all that really matters), would be to have all the trails exclusive use for the entire week of Easter Jeep Safari.

 

[greenjeep]

I do have a couple things to pass on. RR4W had a meeting with BLM and Grand County today to discuss how best to implement and enforce the permit restrictions. More meetings will follow. I was not at the meeting, but they apparently discussed things such as radio, newspaper and TV spots, flyers in local businesses, and notices at the vendor's show. Club members, BLM officials, and law enforcement officials will be posted at various times at trailheads. There is more to be worked out, and I'm sure our land use officer (greenjeep) will pass along the info as soon as possible. Someone asked why the club didn't have this all worked out beforehand. Well, even though the permit was applied for over a year ago, it was not granted untill just a couple weeks ago! There was no way the club could work out every detail untill the permit was granted

I was at the meeting and Drtsqrl got it right, we do have a lot of preliminary plans and ideas, of which we hope to have finalized in the next few weeks.

In addition to what was mentioned above these are some points that were decided:

- The trails will be available AFTER the official trail ride is done for the day.

- If Poison Spider and/or Gold Bar is closed than yes, Golden spike is also closed. Along the same line, if Gold Bar and/or Golden Spike is closed than Rusty Nail will also be unavailable.


We do know that these changes are going to be difficult for a lot of people, and this year is going to be the hardest. But I promise that after this is over we will all be meeting again to find out what went well, and what didn't, and we'll make the appropriate changes to help make future Safaris better.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Thanks for the update!

 

[kirby]

- The trails will be available AFTER the official trail ride is done for the day.

Can we get a time when the trails will be run by RR4W then?
Thanks

 

[Mother Deuce]

RR4W had a meeting with BLM and Grand County today to discuss how best to implement and enforce the permit restrictions. More meetings will follow. I was not at the meeting, but they apparently discussed things such as radio, newspaper and TV spots, flyers in local businesses, and notices at the vendor's show. Club members, BLM officials, and law enforcement officials will be posted at various times at trailheads. There is more to be worked out...

Jeff

As I read the documents, it looks like RR4W is pretty much responsible for enforcing the rules in ths permit. I am curious, who is the "authorized officer" identified in the permit? And who is in charge of watching for the Mexican spotted owl nest? (Wheeling falconers please apply?)

According to the permit, it looks like there are 32 routes affected by these restrictions. A ratio of 25:1 is going seem really small when you have to start dealing with attitude. Ever been sandwiched between a group of posers and a bunch of renegades on Fins during the off season? Not pretty

On a constructive note, it seems that if this event is going to survive the changes implemented this year, RR4W will need enough competent rigs with experienced and concerned drivers to balance out the "unawares." I understand the origins of this event and RR4W's role in its evolution and I personally bow to anyone who has found a way to make Moab his/her/their home. :bow: (I hate you all.) The permit is signed and it is not going away. I think the important thing is to enlist the support RR4W will need to manage the enormous task of enforcing these rules.

Is there any way to get a sticky or dedicated forum that lists (in plain language please) just the hard facts and how the permit will be enforced for quick reference while we jockey for opinion over here?

 

[Cherokeester]

What she said!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^