Jeep Safari 5 year permit and EA

[Steve]

Not their event!? Who pays thousands of dollars each year for permits and insurance? RR4W.

Actually, I believe that the participants pay the "thousands of dollars each year," not the club that simply passes the money through them. Big difference there...

...the best thing that could happen for the sake of our trails (and ultimately, that is all that really matters), would be to have all the trails exclusive use for the entire week of Easter Jeep Safari.

I was going to stay out of this thread after my first couple of posts, but I can't let this go without a response. If you're actually worried about what's BEST for the land, you'd permanently close the trails like SUWA and others want. It's not a very big step from your comment above to SUWA's position.

In all of the arguments about this here, on PBB and on other boards, I guess what chaps me are several things:

1. The trails in Moab are, for the most part, on BLM land. That means it's owned by all of us, whether we belong to RR4W, some other club, or no club at all. I personally don't agree with closing public land to me in order to cater to a private group or event. Yeah, I know it's done at the Rubicon, but simply saying it's done there doesn't make it right for Moab or anywhere else.

2. There's a lot of rhetoric about "what's best for the trails," but the only reason stated in the permit for trail closures is to "avoid congestion." That doesn't address protection of the trails, it simply says "we don't want to be bothered by anybody else while we're on the trail."

3. There is also a lot of rhetoric that basically is saying "if you don't belong to RR4W you have had no part in keeping Moab's trails open." That's simply BS. I belong to other orgainzations and support them with my time and $. I comment on issues and attend public hearings. I take part in trail cleanups. Sorry, I won't "join" a club or organization by simply sending them $ without having any vote or say in their decisions, so I'm not a "member" of RR4W.

I never thought I'd see the day when 'wheelers would close trails on public land to other 'wheelers unless they pay for the privilege of running those trails, which is really the bottom line here. If you're willing to pay $50 to run a trail on public land with a large group, you're good; if you aren't you're bad or a "renegade" according to some posts. Simply wanting to run a legal trail on public land without paying $50 to be part of a large group does NOT make one a "renegade" wheeler.

 

[Mother Deuce]

The trails in Moab are, for the most part, on BLM land. That means it's owned by all of us, whether we belong to RR4W, some other club, or no club at all. I personally don't agree with closing public land to me in order to cater to a private group or event.

Wow, that argument ranks up there with "It's a free country I can do whatever I want."

Public land isn't yours or mine or RR4W's. Individual interests are inherently in conflict with one another so "public land" must balance those interests. Neither you (nor anybody else) can go/do whatever/whenever you want on any public land, there are still rules. Granting RR4W a permit for an event they are hosting is no different than a car club renting the City park for a car show - you don't get to picnic in the pavilion if somebody else has gone through the red tape to reserve it. As John Q Public, you have every right to petition the BLM for restricted access - just like RR4W did.

RR4W is trying to gain control over EJS before somebody else takes control and we all lose access. Isn't that a good thing for everybody? (No, I am not a member but I would be if I could find a sponsor.)

 

[Cherokeester]

3. I never thought I'd see the day when 'wheelers would close trails on public land to other 'wheelers unless they pay for the privilege of running those trails, which is really the bottom line here. If you're willing to pay $50 to run a trail on public land with a large group, you're good; if you aren't you're bad or a "renegade" according to some posts. Simply wanting to run a legal trail on public land without paying $50 to be part of a large group does NOT make one a "renegade" wheeler.

Actually I'm with Steve on this one. Funds to keep BLM land up and running are generated in many ways, fee stations for one, and I am happy to pay every cent. (I even pay when the booths are closed) I support most of the business's in Moab with literally thousands each year. I also help in trail cleanups. It erks me some to have to pay $100.00 to run a trail or stay off it. I wish I could "reserve" my local airport to run my Cobra there... humm..

 

[Steve]

Wow, that argument ranks up there with "It's a free country I can do whatever I want."

If you add "...as long as it's legal" to the end you're right. I simply expressed my opinion of closing public land for private "parties." You don't have to agree with me...

As John Q Public, you have every right to petition the BLM for restricted access - just like RR4W did.

I know I do, and that's probably what bothers me the most about this. Will you or anyone else be whining when a group of hikers, or mtn bikers, or another 'wheeling group gets the same kind of trail closures for another week? What happens if we eventually end up where there are several weeks in the spring when Moab is essentially closed because various private groups have gotten exclusive rights to a bunch of trails for a week? We all lose if that's what eventually happens...

 

[Todd Adams]

Actually, I believe that the participants pay the "thousands of dollars each year," not the club that simply passes the money through them. Big difference there...


I was going to stay out of this thread after my first couple of posts, but I can't let this go without a response. If you're actually worried about what's BEST for the land, you'd permanently close the trails like SUWA and others want. It's not a very big step from your comment above to SUWA's position.

In all of the arguments about this here, on PBB and on other boards, I guess what chaps me are several things:

1. The trails in Moab are, for the most part, on BLM land. That means it's owned by all of us, whether we belong to RR4W, some other club, or no club at all. I personally don't agree with closing public land to me in order to cater to a private group or event. Yeah, I know it's done at the Rubicon, but simply saying it's done there doesn't make it right for Moab or anywhere else.

2. There's a lot of rhetoric about "what's best for the trails," but the only reason stated in the permit for trail closures is to "avoid congestion." That doesn't address protection of the trails, it simply says "we don't want to be bothered by anybody else while we're on the trail."

3. There is also a lot of rhetoric that basically is saying "if you don't belong to RR4W you have had no part in keeping Moab's trails open." That's simply BS. I belong to other orgainzations and support them with my time and $. I comment on issues and attend public hearings. I take part in trail cleanups. Sorry, I won't "join" a club or organization by simply sending them $ without having any vote or say in their decisions, so I'm not a "member" of RR4W.

I never thought I'd see the day when 'wheelers would close trails on public land to other 'wheelers unless they pay for the privilege of running those trails, which is really the bottom line here. If you're willing to pay $50 to run a trail on public land with a large group, you're good; if you aren't you're bad or a "renegade" according to some posts. Simply wanting to run a legal trail on public land without paying $50 to be part of a large group does NOT make one a "renegade" wheeler.

As one of the "officials" that has to deal with attitudes like yours I urge you to please stay away from Moab during “Jeep Week” Let’s meet on the trail some other time. I am sure we would get along other than on these points.
I am of two minds here. First after dealing with people who have your type of attitude while part of the Safari, that this is public land and these restrictions are not necessary, I am glad about the restrictions and feel that this is about time. On the other hand I too will have to live up the rules and not be able to run the trails I want on the days I don’t lead trails. That is why I asked Dave about Rusty Nail. So I can sympathize with you but I can’t agree with you on any of your points about the permit.
Todd Adams
U4WDA Safety officer and past President
Associate Member Red Rock 4-Wheelers

 

[Steve]

As one of the "officials" that has to deal with attitudes like yours I urge you to please stay away from Moab during “Jeep Week”

Attitudes like mine that you have to "deal with?" What are you trying to say; that I'm automatically a troublemaker who you'll have to "deal with" simply because our opinions about closing public land for a private group differ? WOW! I don't like being called a renegade because I don't want to pay $50 to wheel a public trail, so you assume I'll cause you some problem you'll have to "deal with???" Whether I agree with the rules or not, you can rest assured that I will abide by them, whatever they are, and that I'm NOT someone who would cause any problems you'd have to "deal with."

Sorry for the rant, but I've been wheeling for 30+ years. I've donated a helluva lot of time and $ to help keep trails open and open new ones. I'm not some renegade who would ever cause trouble because I don't agree with something, and I greatly resent that implication in your reply. Don't worry, you won't have to "deal with" me this year.

 

[JoeT]

I've been wondering after reading most of these posts about somethings. How long till there's a second event at Moab? Sponsored by RR4W or another group. Seems what we all are seeing is growing pains and too much greenie threats. EJS has gotten too popular and too big. Too many problems are happening that are truely not RR4W's fault or responsiblity. Time to thin the herd or plan 2 big events? In some ways it seems that RR4W is trying to screen out the non payers. Ok I can some what understand that. I'd like to see 2 events at Moab that way everyone can get chance at going to a large event in Moab. I know there's all sorts of smaller events by other clubs (NAXJA and the ZJ one etc) during the year. I love see all the different rigs and watching the fun on Potato Salad.

 

[Todd Adams]

Attitudes like mine that you have to "deal with?" What are you trying to say; that I'm automatically a troublemaker who you'll have to "deal with" simply because our opinions about closing public land for a private group differ? WOW! I don't like being called a renegade because I don't want to pay $50 to wheel a public trail, so you assume I'll cause you some problem you'll have to "deal with???" Whether I agree with the rules or not, you can rest assured that I will abide by them, whatever they are, and that I'm NOT someone who would cause any problems you'd have to "deal with."

Sorry for the rant, but I've been wheeling for 30+ years. I've donated a helluva lot of time and $ to help keep trails open and open new ones. I'm not some renegade who would ever cause trouble because I don't agree with something, and I greatly resent that implication in your reply. Don't worry, you won't have to "deal with" me this year.

It is a fact of life that there is "change" and that some people can not deal with it. I have had to deal and will continue to deal with "attitudes" on the trail during EJS so I am just getting some of it out of the way for this year.

The following two responses are copied from another forum and I thought they we appropriate here. I am not directing this at you Steve because I believe you rather to those that are following this thread and would come during “Jeep Week” just to cause trouble.

OR...I know this might strike you as a novel idea...REGISTER and PAY to go on the trails that week. 70% of you wouldn't even know about Moab if it were not for the RR4Wheelers and for those that did, you prolly wouldn't be able to wheel there without the YEARS of support by that fantastic club.

Seriously, ****(edit) you bitching bastards that don't consider just how delicate of a balance this wheeling location has become because of your cheap-ass non-paying ways of attending the Easter Jeep Safari HOSTED by the RR4Wheelers.

Don't come if you won't register and help pay to keep fighting for that amazing part of the world. If you do come, register and just run EARLY...leave for the trail ahead of the group you are registered for. If they catch up to you, no biggie as you've paid to be there. Don't take people with you that didn't register. If you don't want to register for those FEW runs out of the many great places you can play in Moab, then go play at Area BFE but don't forget to financially support them too as they have paid for YOUR fun, just as the RR4Wheelers have done over the years. **** you guys piss me off with your inconsiderate greed.

Yes, I renegade every year in Moab...but not without registering and paying for every day I will wheel to support EJS. We normally register for trails, pay up, then cancel our spot, not getting a refund. Works for everyone.
__________________
Dustin "Pirate Board Rock Crawling Police" Webster

You all have got to be crazy...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've lived in Moab all my life. Born, Raised, Moved away for College, Moved Back because I love it. Married a local girl and have 5 kids of my own.

I remember the day when we use to go out and make the trails you all think of when you come to EJS. I've been wheelin here before you prolly even heard the word Moab.

There is not a more beautiful place on earth... and it's a freaking mad house EJS weekend. In years past you could get on any trail and expect to pass 2 or 3 different renegade caravans going either way. You have people drive in to see double wammie or other obstacles clogging up the roads for those who have PAID to participate... yep... I'll admit I've even done it a time or 2.

But, let's get real. This weekend keeps getting bigger every year. More and more come who don't participate in the safari or in the club or the mud fund. They come.... mooch on the atmosphere of all the sweet rides and great people... clog the trails going the wrong way or unguided ripping up the landscape and making their own roads.

It's time that you have to pay to play... or shut up. It's that simple. Moab is available 50 other weeks out of the year. If you aren't man enough to cough up some cash to support keeping the trails open... then stay home... you're not a REAL wheeler! Take responsibility for this world... contribute. Join a trail or 3... or quit your bitching.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Wow, that argument ranks up there with "It's a free country I can do whatever I want."

Public land isn't yours or mine or RR4W's. Individual interests are inherently in conflict with one another so "public land" must balance those interests. Neither you (nor anybody else) can go/do whatever/whenever you want on any public land, there are still rules. Granting RR4W a permit for an event they are hosting is no different than a car club renting the City park for a car show - you don't get to picnic in the pavilion if somebody else has gone through the red tape to reserve it. As John Q Public, you have every right to petition the BLM for restricted access - just like RR4W did.

RR4W is trying to gain control over EJS before somebody else takes control and we all lose access. Isn't that a good thing for everybody? (No, I am not a member but I would be if I could find a sponsor.)

VERY well put...

People act as if this type of permitted closure is the first, its not, and its not that last you will see of it. Hell, I pay hundreds of dollars a year to park on STATE property (UofU parking), I go to the park to find all of the pavillions are RESERVED by private interests... You have to PAY to use a public campground that is managed by a PRIVATE company making PROFIT (something RR4W's are not doing).

Its finally "in our backyard" and now its an issue...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Will you or anyone else be whining when a group of hikers, or mtn bikers, or another 'wheeling group gets the same kind of trail closures for another week? ...

THEY ALREADY DO. Various Mtn Bike races, Marathons, movie filming, etc shut down PUBLIC lands ALL THE TIME! SLC shuts down MILES & MILES of public roads for parades, marathons, races, etc. They don't just shut them down to other racers, they shut them down to EVERYONE but themselves... At least all the other land-users (hikers, bikers) will have free travel in the RR4W case, something that can't be said in many other cases...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I wish I could "reserve" my local airport to run my Cobra there... humm..

For the right amount of money you probably could... Private companies reserve PUBLIC property ALL THE TIME for their own interests. They lock EVERYONE out, all day, all night. RR4W is getting exlusive 4x4 rights to 8% of the trails for the fraction of a day that they are on the trail.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...It erks me some to have to pay $100.00 to run a trail or stay off it...

You are not just handing money away...

Your fees "grease the wheels of Moab"...

In addition to the large chunks of money that heads to the BLM (and yes they have other sources, but they always need more, last year RR4W gave ~$30k to the Moab BLM, that is a huge chunk of their yearly budget as small as they are). Money heads to the SITLA land agency, RR4W gives the money to the local search & rescue, local schools (keep the community happy with Jeepers. They also donate to the local law enforcement to help with the extra burden of the EJS weekend (though they are the vast minority of people in town).

Just a thought...

 

[Steve]

It is a fact of life that there is "change" and that some people can not deal with it. I have had to deal and will continue to deal with "attitudes" on the trail during EJS so I am just getting some of it out of the way for this year.

I am not directing this at you Steve because I believe you rather to those that are following this thread and would come during “Jeep Week” just to cause trouble.

I know there is change, and I can see both sides of this issue. I can deal with change, but I don't have to agree with it. That doesn't mean, however, that I'd ever cause trouble, break any rules, go off trail, wheel with an "attitude" or anything else negative. The opinion that has been voiced here and on other forums that anyone who disagrees with the rules is automatically a troublemaker (or worse) is just plain wrong and insulting, and yeah, it pisses me off. Rest assured that whatever the rules are or what they become, and whether or not I personally agree with them, I'm not a troublemaker that anyone will have to "deal with."

I quit going to EJS years ago, mainly because of what that whole week has become; drunk spring breakers, huge crowds, too many people, and yes, a genuine troublemaker element on the trails. That's not your fault or the fault of the RR4W, it's just the way it is. Could we wheel together and get along great? Probably, as long as a simple difference of opinion didn't turn personal - there's too much of that in this discussion.

I expect personal attacks and insults over simple differences of opinion on Pirate; I didn't expect it here. I'll bow out of this thread now...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I've been wondering after reading most of these posts about somethings. How long till there's a second event at Moab? Sponsored by RR4W or another group. Seems what we all are seeing is growing pains and too much greenie threats. EJS has gotten too popular and too big. Too many problems are happening that are truely not RR4W's fault or responsiblity... In some ways it seems that RR4W is trying to screen out the non payers. Ok I can some what understand that. I'd like to see 2 events at Moab that way everyone can get chance at going to a large event in Moab. I know there's all sorts of smaller events by other clubs (NAXJA and the ZJ one etc) during the year. I love see all the different rigs and watching the fun on Potato Salad.

As soon as another large scale event draws the giant crowds along with it... I personally don't see it happening anytime soon. The Rock crawls, the other 4x4 events (Cruise Moab, Susuki deal, Bronco guys, etc) are all TINY compared to EJS. It took 40 years for EJS to get this big, and I actually think it is tapering off... mabey RR4W won't need the trail exclusions in the future?

The official EJS has NOT gotten too big, it has actually gotten smaller the last couple years. On the otherhand the unofficial crowd has grown to some degree though as I have mentioned earlier I think that even that crowd is tapering off...

I don't think they are really trying to thin out the non-payers as much as keep a quaility & safe event for their existing participants. I am willing to be they see a small number of registrations that felt "forced" to officially participate.

RR4W does to a Fall Event, however there are very few "renegades" during that weekend... nothing compared to the EJS weekend.

I amazed at how many people know about "Jeep Safari", yet have no clue who RR4W are...

 

[JoeT]

I amazed at how many people know about "Jeep Safari", yet have no clue who RR4W are...

Same here. I'm very thankful for RR4W and all that they do. I didn't realize that donated so much to locals. Good work guys! I wouldn't miss EJS for just about anything. Heck last year I got to abuse my wife ZJ due to my XJ not being done.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I know there is change, and I can see both sides of this issue. I can deal with change, but I don't have to agree with it. That doesn't mean, however, that I'd ever cause trouble, break any rules, go off trail, wheel with an "attitude" or anything else negative....

Steve, I for one have never thought you were associated with the problem. And I can happily agree to disagree on the subject, I am thankful for your energy and enthusiasm for making a difference. I have NEVER officially registered for a EJS run, at first I had no clue it was an official event (I was 16), then I just decided to "dodge" the trails they were on, and these last few years I have spent my days promoting U4, Usa-All & BRC at the vendor show, so I wheel at night. I don't feel like I am part of the "troublemaker" crowd, yet at the same time I can see things from the RR4W "cover your ass" approach. Thanks again for your input!

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Same here. I'm very thankful for RR4W and all that they do. I didn't realize that donated so much to locals. Good work guys! I wouldn't miss EJS for just about anything....

Me neither... but it makes you realize how an event so hated by outsiders (greenie groups) could still happen after 40 yrs in rather liberal (greenie) arena.

Tradeoffs... Life is full of them.

 

[Mother Deuce]

I wish I could "reserve" my local airport to run my Cobra there... humm..

I think you can as long as you have a pilot's license for that thing.

It erks me some to have to pay $100.00 to run a trail or stay off it.

The trail fee does hurt - especially for those of use who are 2-jeep (or more) families. Double trail fees add to the already inflated prices during EJS. Are these fees set in stone because I couldn't locate them in the 100+ pages of permit documents? If I mount a small winch to my bicycle, can I pedal up to the Waterfall and watch for free?

I still say that RR4W is playing by the rules that BLM set. BUT I think the pressure is on RR4W to make sure the event doesn't turn into a disaster, and that they can fulfill their end of the agreement in terms of notice and enforcement. It is a simple fact that while the weekend party crashers cause the problems, the community will bill it to RR4W's account. I think I'd be willing to pay for them to shoulder that burden. (JMO)

 

[TimB]

The fee is based on people days - so they find the average people per rig and multiply by the fee rate. The fee you pay on days after the first day is pretty much 100% BLM and State fees. The cost of the first day is high because it covers the event cost as well. Postage, arena rent, etc, etc.

 

[Todd Adams]

I was just looking at the Jeepers Jamboree. This event will cost you $305 for the 3 day event and $325 for the 4 day event. This is per person not vehicle. They do feed you but for a family of 4 for the 4 day event it would cost you $1300! I was talking to a couple of the Smith kids that are at the arena each year promoting the Jamboree and they could not believe how we could put on the Easter Safari for so little money even without the meals.

At that price UROC event fees don't seem so much.