Southwest Crawlfest... what went wrong?

[sixstringsteve]

Let's create a hypothetical situation:

For the sake of this example, let's pretend some one organized a 4wd festival and none of us attended it. Let's say the outcome was damaging to the 4wd community and the festival made the BLM mad at the 4wd community because of poor organization, fees, and permits associated with said event. That in and of itself would be enough to make 90% of us on RME upset.

Now let's say the organizer held a raffle for a "land-use benefit" and most of that money never made it to the land-use orgs. Instead it went to pay for hats and shirts, and event fees. That would only add fuel to the fire, and would make 99% of us mad.

Now lets's say that he's a nice guy, and he's been nice to us in the past. Does that excuse the first two issues?

What if we attended the event and we had a lot of fun? Is it ok now? No!


Now, I don't know the facts, I'm waiting for them along with everyone else on this thread. I'm not saying this is what did or did not happen. If the accusations are true, we have reason to be mad regardless of how fun it was. The issue at hand is not whether SWCF was fun and if Steve is a nice guy. The issue is, what happened to that money, and are the allegations correct? If so, we need to prevent this sort of thing from happeneing again. If not, let's clear it up and all learn from the mistakes made by others and move forward.


One this is certain, the BLM is not happy with SWCF and damage has been done. Let's work to make sure this damage doesn't happen again (sounds like lots are already doing this).



(CJMatt, this is not directed at you, or any individual in particular).

 

[Cody]

At the very least, any vendor/organization who either donated goods and/or was promised donations under the guise of 'land use' initiatives, it's time to call the Washington County Sheriff's Office and get a case number going on this. Once a case number is established, it needs to be posted and every private donation/participant needs to call and chime in on said WCSO case number and help build a criminal case against Mr. Crabtree. Just for good measure I would also add Mr. (insert real name here) rholbrook's name in the complaint too seeing he has claimed his participation in the accounting aspect of this debacle and has also appeared to be Mr. Crabtree's 'proclaimed' spokesman.

As far as Dave Kiel, BLM's Outdoor Recreation Planner, you can take this to the federal level. More then likely if a local sheriff's office has an ongoing investigation in the matter, I'm sure the feds will let the local investigation run its course. I would assume though under a very watchful eye. Again I would assume the feds would only step in if they could see a bigger fish to fry.

Now, as for other events that have been named in this thread, and others that haven't, this has blackened the eyes of everybody who puts on 'events' on any land. I'm talking all the way down from your daughter's 4H dog and pony show to the Mormon pioneer settler's push cart re-enactment. Everybody will be affected. I highly doubt that the BLM has permit forms for every different event held by every different organization that asks for one. I'm sure it's what I would call a 'blanket' permit form with only the spaces needing to be filled in. I'm sure this form/procedure at the very least is being scrutinized by people higher up then us as to see this doesn't happen in the future. I can only imagine all the good intelligence SUWA is gleaning from this as well.

Mr. Crabtree has made promises all the way from monetary donations to land use organizations to giving dates as to when he would chime in and explain all of this obvious misunderstanding. Promises that haven't been kept.

As stated before, I didn't attend this event so I don't really have a dog in this fight. I may be an ass, but I'm not always a dumb ass. Reality is that laws have been broke and crimes have been committed. Somebody needs to man up and get the legal ball rolling if it hasn't done already.

Good luck to all parties involved!!!

I'm not entirely sure that trying to dig the legal pit for him deeper than it needs to be is necessarily in our best interests when it comes to land use issues. I think the last thing we need is a major lawsuit slash BLM federal investigation on record in regards to a reasonably large and poorly managed 4x4 event. Anti-access orgs will run with that regardless of our own intentions to self police. I think the best thing to do is to try and get this resolved on our own and hope that the negative aspects can be swept under the rug and the rest of us can move forward on a positive foot with the BLM.

 

[Greg]

At the very least, any vendor/organization who either donated goods and/or was promised donations under the guise of 'land use' initiatives, it's time to call the Washington County Sheriff's Office and get a case number going on this. Once a case number is established, it needs to be posted and every private donation/participant needs to call and chime in on said WCSO case number and help build a criminal case against Mr. Crabtree. Just for good measure I would also add Mr. (insert real name here) rholbrook's name in the complaint too seeing he has claimed his participation in the accounting aspect of this debacle and has also appeared to be Mr. Crabtree's 'proclaimed' spokesman.

I would leave Russ out of this, as he was just another person con'd by Steve Crabtree and decided to help out after buying Steve's sob story. I personally will vouch for Russ as a stand up guy, he was trying to help after being asked by Steve.

The rest of it... yes, I agree that a criminal case needs to be made against Steve Crabtree. He has had his chance to clear his name and explain about the situation. That has not happened and it's time to take this to the next level. IMO we all need to work together and prevent Steve from defrauding companies, ripping off good people that believe they are supporting Land Use Orgs by giving Steve money, etc, etc.

Steve Crabtree and Southwest Crawlfest need to be shut down and not let him put together another event in the state of Utah or anywhere else.

 

[SAMI]

Sixstring - You speak as though anyone of us in the 4x4 community would have say on how any future event is run. Where are you coming up with this? "We need to prevent this from happening again", you say. Several people told Steve to his face, over the phone, via emails, that if the '11 event ran the same as the '10 event, that there were going to be ugly repricussions. Loads of people know what Steve has been up to for years, and they always tell Steve that he will be watched like a hawk, but it falls on Crabtree's deaf ears. He sees an opportunity to make cash and then claim costs of the event didn't allow for donations to go out. DOES HE THINK THAT WE ARE ALL MORONS!?!?!?!?! The simple answer is yes, he sees us all as dumb as he is. See what I did there?

After the event, he then claimed that he was too busy to answer any specific management questions about the SWCF event, because he needed to spend time with a sick mother (or mother in law), but instead found himself at KOH having a grand old time with his daughter.. Wonder whose raffle tickets paid for that gas money?

 

[Unimog]

Although I would agree that this kind of behavior injures the OHV community at large, I'd say it is up to the folks who suffered the monetary damage here to decide whether to proceed legally.

IF our concern in this forum is the image the OHV community has to the public at large (maybe I'm making an assumption there), there may be very little to be gained and a lot to be lost by dragging such issues through the courts. Unless, of course, your primary goal is retribution.

 

[Cody]

IF our concern in this forum is the image the OHV community has to the public at large (maybe I'm making an assumption there), there may be very little to be gained and a lot to be lost by dragging such issues through the courts. Unless, of course, your primary goal is retribution.

I very much agree.

 

[SAMI]

I think the last thing we need is a major lawsuit slash BLM federal investigation on record in regards to a reasonably large and poorly managed 4x4 event. Anti-access orgs will run with that regardless of our own intentions to self police. I think the best thing to do is to try and get this resolved on our own and hope that the negative aspects can be swept under the rug and the rest of us can move forward on a positive foot with the BLM.

As Tracy said elsewhere, "but its better to get a black eye and have it heal over time, then to let cancer spread and maybe never be able to stop it."

The cancer being Crabtree, obviously, and anyone who might ahve the same thoughts about 'quick cash' in their head. I agree that the publicity will suck, but it will go away in due time. The longer this cancer grows, the worse off we all are for allowing it to spread. Atleast the BLM knows who the cancerous parties are, so really the blackeye isn't as big as it could be; if this were a larger issue with a general body of 4x4 enthusiasts.

 

[Cody]

The BLM knows, and we know, but does the average joe-citizen know when SUWA brings it up in front of a government committee about how this event was mismanaged and illegally run on BLM land thus requesting for tighter restrictions?

Lets not turn this into a manhunt. If people or businesses have that big of a beef with Steve, then let them handle it out of the public eye. They can file a personal claim against him in Civil court. Like Mog said, it's up to those who suffered the monetary damage.

I think it's safe to say that the 'cancer' in this instance isn't going to be organizing any more off-road events in the future--here or elsewhere.

 

[SAMI]

^ Agreed.

 

[Don B]

The BLM knows, and we know, but does the average joe-citizen know when SUWA brings it up in front of a government committee about how this event was mismanaged and illegally run on BLM land thus requesting for tighter restrictions?

Mismanaged certainly, but not illegally run on BLM land. Even though the BLM was pissed, they did put out a letter or authorization for the 2010 event and a permit was issued for the 2011 event. As long as the fees are paid, the BLM will be taken care of.

I also do not want to see the BLM situation escalated, paticularly to the federal level as it would be used against the entire 4x4 community. The local BLM has this taken care of, let them do their job.

 

[Jesser04]

I would leave Russ out of this, as he was just another person con'd by Steve Crabtree and decided to help out after buying Steve's sob story. I personally will vouch for Russ as a stand up guy, he was trying to help after being asked by Steve.

X2 Russ is a quality guy.

 

[Greg]

Although I would agree that this kind of behavior injures the OHV community at large, I'd say it is up to the folks who suffered the monetary damage here to decide whether to proceed legally.

IF our concern in this forum is the image the OHV community has to the public at large (maybe I'm making an assumption there), there may be very little to be gained and a lot to be lost by dragging such issues through the courts. Unless, of course, your primary goal is retribution.

Agreed, the people who donated money, which they understood was going to be given to the named land use orgs, as well as the businesses that provided product for the raffle, which the funds for the raffle were also supposed to go to those same land use orgs, have something worth filing over. I don't know the legal system very well, but I think that's a good start.

I think one of the best things to do would be for ONE person file a complaint of theft to the local Sheriff, by someone directly involved in paying money to Steven Crabtree. At that point, I think it would be worth asking if anyone else would like to put their name on the complaint. Once the Sheriff starts digging around, I would hope that would convince Steve Crabtree that he screwed the wrong crowd and he will NOT be attempting to do it again.

 

[anderson750]

Just for good measure I would also add Mr. (insert real name here) rholbrook's name in the complaint too seeing he has claimed his participation in the accounting aspect of this debacle and has also appeared to be Mr. Crabtree's 'proclaimed' spokesman.

Russ was not involved with any accounting for the event. He cleaned up the registration database and correlated it with the paypal report. The big issue here is not the registrations, it is the raffle money, which he had nothing to do with.

 

[ID Bronco]

I am just reading and watching this like many others. No involvement in participation or any thing else. I do have a question that probably borders on insanity, but here it goes. I don't have a venomous hate for Steve, don't know him but if the allegations are true I don't want to either.

The issue here to me as another 4x4 enthusiast is the problem with the blm getting paid. Is it insane to think maybe we should all rally up and raise the money to pay the bill just to help relations with them and get them appeased long term? I know its Steve's bill but should we look at this as an opportunity to show them the stark difference in our actions and those allegedly done by Steve?

Just a thought. How much is the BLM bill?

 

[CJ Matt]

I did not attend this years event but did make last years and had a great time. It is sad to see what happened this year and I hope it does not kill SWCF for the future.

I had no idea this translated into: “I like fraud and those that commit it. I also would love to partake in events that are fraudulent and do not give money to the Orgs that I care about and am a member of.”

To me it simply meant: If properly managed and done for the reasons advertised and many thought to be true it could be a good event. Simple things like the money going where it was supposed to.

The only thing we are going to get out of attacking each other is enemies we don’t need. Do we want to continue down that path or concentrate our efforts on those that did wrong?

 

[fullsizeyota]

Funny, last night the same thought hit me.

As slightly different idea though, should we make a donation in the same amount as steves bill but not pay steves bill? Then the blm is covered and they can still go after him legally.

That's my thought.

 

[Don B]

I am just reading and watching this like many others. No involvement in participation or any thing else. I do have a question that probably borders on insanity, but here it goes. I don't have a venomous hate for Steve, don't know him but if the allegations are true I don't want to either.

The issue here to me as another 4x4 enthusiast is the problem with the blm getting paid. Is it insane to think maybe we should all rally up and raise the money to pay the bill just to help relations with them and get them appeased long term? I know its Steve's bill but should we look at this as an opportunity to show them the stark difference in our actions and those allegedly done by Steve?

Just a thought. How much is the BLM bill?

I don't know what the BLM bill is, but if it does not get paid, maybe we can work out something with the BLM and get it taken care of.
Some of us are in regular contact with the BLM and will follow up to make sure this is resolved.

 

[sixstringsteve]

I don't know what the BLM bill is, but if it does not get paid, maybe we can work out something with the BLM and get it taken care of.
Some of us are in regular contact with the BLM and will follow up to make sure this is resolved.

Thank you. Keep us posted and let us know what we can do to help.

 

[Don B]

Funny, last night the same thought hit me.

As slightly different idea though, should we make a donation in the same amount as steves bill but not pay steves bill? Then the blm is covered and they can still go after him legally.

That's my thought.

Interesting idea, if the bill doesn't get paid, maybe we could look into that.

I'm kind of mixed, I want the BLM taken care of, but if the unpaid fees leave the BLM reason to deny a permit to any event that EC is involved in, well that would be good also

 

[rholbrook]

Here is what I know as of a couple of days ago. I provided the BLM numbers to Steve at the same time I gave him the registration numbers. Steve forwarded the registration numbers to each club as well as emailed the vehicle occupancy numbers to someone at the BLM. I dont remember the persons name at the BLM that they were sent to but Steve did tell me that he received an email back thanking him for the numbers and that they will get back to him in regards to amount owed to the BLM. If my memory serves me right and I am getting old, the $4 per person number is what I think I remember Steve saying the BLM was wanting. Thats $1,116 if its based on a per person. If its based on a per rig then it will be much less, more like $576. How is it charged when you drive into Sand Hollow?

For those backing up my character, thanks, I'm glad my wife and children don't read RME. I would be really screwed because they all think I'm a d-bag.