Political So now what

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Pike2350

Registered User
Location
Salt Lake City
ok, take out that, because I do agree it is stupid click bait wording. Project Veritas is admitting to having no evidence of voter fraud regarding mail in ballots in PA. Something it said loudly and for a long time, and specifically calling out a certain postal worker because they were taking the word from 1 person who claims to have overheard the postal worker "back dated mail-in ballots for Biden" Nothing to back it up, and the single individual eventually recanted what he said, but Veritas still claimed the voter fraud was real.

They got sued and now have to admit they had no evidence. But again, because a journalist used click bait headlines means it isn't real and is completely flawed and means you have grounds to ignore anything stated. No offense, but sounds like a little kid putting fingers in their ears and going "La la la la la" to avoid hearing something they don't like.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
No offense, but sounds like a little kid putting fingers in their ears and going "La la la la la" to avoid hearing something they don't like.
No offense, but I don't plan on taking political advice from people (yahoo) who sided with or ran propaganda for closing the economy and forcing an untested medical experiment on people at the behest and profit of giant pharmaceutical corporations. I use this litmus for most everything I look into now and it's working out just fine for me.

Cheers.
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
Isn't the argument for gun reform that criminals will find a way to get guns regardless of laws against them? Can't that similar argument be made for immigration? I also would say that sexual predators/deviants and bathrooms is the same thing. A criminal is going to do what they want regardless. More barbed wire would keep the honest people honest, but would it keep the dishonest people honest?

I agree that the larger umbrella solution would be a vastly overhauled immigration system that allows for a more streamlined process. I don't know that putting up a bigger, sharper wall, and covering your eyes to pretend they aren't there is the best solution. Because you know what? This country needs cheap labor and there are lots of people that would be willing to come here and fill that role. People bitch about why food and service prices have skyrocketed, well it's because labor has skyrocketed. The cost of labor in kitchen work has doubled in 4 years. My raw material costs (hops in particular) are about to double with CY24 because Washington passed labor laws that prevent the farmers from working laborers more than 10 hours in a day (actually, it might be 8 even) and like 50 hours in a week. They can't get the migrant workforce (which they legally bring in with temporary work visas) to agree to come because they can't get enough hours to make it worth their time to move to Washington for 3 months. So now the farmers have to pay twice as much for probably half as efficient labor. Hop prices go up, beer prices go up, Hickey's happy meter go down.

So people don't want unskilled laborers to come here, but they also don't want to pay $14 for an Apollo Burger. Shit man, let's put a convenience tax on fast food, agricultural products, and other similar goods that are dependent upon unskilled labor and use that money to offset the additional cost of hiring non-migrant labor and to better enforce the borders.

The real truth is there will likely never be any real change because the system is working exactly how it was designed to work (us vs them, red vs blue, and the ruling class with built in mechanisms to preserve their power) and people are too afraid of change.
Lots of valid points. Here is what gets me angry about the current situation. If I came to another country and they offered me money, I'd take it. Many immigrants, legal or criminal do just that. They take the handout we all would. There are also many who lie and cheat to get every dollar they can. I don't think this is a Hispanic or immigrant only issue but I am fed up enough with the legal resident fraudsters that I don't want to fund the illegal ones.
Second issue. If I go ride the recently closed federal land around Moab they will ticket or arrest me. If that is a thing for me, the feds should be doing it to everyone who isn't a tax paying citizen. Instead they are transporting criminal aliens over public land and setting them loose with a stipend.
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Interesting article in my feed from our good "journalist " friends at CNN and apparently the Washington Post ? Whatever the source, interesting read and interesting thoughts. If Trump were to be removed due to "insurrection " and we all admit Biden is in office literally because of Trump hate, wouldn't it make the election interesting? I'd love to not vote for Biden or Trump. Give me almost anyone else (especially a centrist of some kind) and I would bet they have a strong chance to win against Biden?


_________________________________________

How using the 14th Amendment against Trump went from a ‘pipe-dream fantasy’ to the Supreme Court
By Marshall Cohen, CNN
Updated 5:13 AM EST, Tue February 6, 2024

Melina Mara/The Washington Post/Getty Images
Former Colorado legislator Norma Anderson in Lakewood, Colorado, on Monday January 29, 2024.
Washington
CNN

A lot of smart people predicted this day would never come.

This day being Thursday, when the Supreme Court will hear arguments on whether to disqualify former President Donald Trump from office because of the January 6, 2021, insurrection. The justices are reviewing a landmark decision from Colorado’s top court, which concluded the 14th Amendment’s “insurrectionist ban” applies to Trump.

The legal theory behind the lawsuit transformed over three years from a fringe idea to a successful case heading to the highest court in the land. The litigation faced tremendously long odds, no direct precedent and a well-funded opponent – and yet still won in Colorado.


STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Liberal-leaning groups planned out how to bring the 14th amendment challenges against Trump.

Test cases were run against Reps. Marjorie Taylor Greene and former Rep. Madison Cawthorn.

The Supreme Court will consider the case on Thursday.

Many experts still believe the Supreme Court, with its conservative supermajority, will resolve the matter in Trump’s favor, especially with the 2024 primaries underway.

Thursday’s high-stakes hearing is the culmination of a politically diverse array of legal scholars coalescing behind a surprisingly strong challenge against one of the most teflon politicians of our time.

They brought test cases during the 2022 midterms, to start breaking legal ground on the arcane constitutional provision that hadn’t been touched since 1919. They scoured the country for which states had laws on the books that could give them a path to a successful ballot challenge. And along the way, their controversial efforts gained some bipartisan backing, with a major boost from the House January 6 committee.

“People were saying it’s a pipe-dream fantasy, or it’s silly, or too hard. But where would America be if we didn’t do hard things?” said Donald Sherman, the top attorney at Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, or CREW, which filed the Colorado lawsuit.

‘A sheer coincidence’
The journey to the Supreme Court unknowingly began even before the insurrection itself.

A soft-spoken Indiana University law professor, Gerard Magliocca, published an academic paper in December 2020 about the “insurrectionist ban” and how it was historically enforced against former Confederates after the Civil War.

“The timing was a sheer coincidence,” Magliocca recalled, adding that he decided during the pandemic-plagued summer of 2020 that his next research project would focus on the disqualification clause because “it just so happened that nobody had written about it.”


Got questions about Trump, the Supreme Court and 2024? Ask them here
The provision at the center of the 14th Amendment litigation, known as Section 3, says in part: “No person shall … hold any office … under the United States … who, having previously taken an oath … to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.”

On January 6, 2021, eight days after Magliocca’s paper was published, thousands of Trump supporters violently stormed the US Capitol, forcing lawmakers to evacuate and disrupting Congress’ certification of the 2020 election results. They attacked the Capitol after Trump, who called them to Washington, DC, urged them to “fight” against a “rigged” 2020 election.


Jack Dempsey/Pool/AP
Indiana University law professor Gerard Magliocca, an expert on the 14th Amendment’s “insurrectionist ban,” testifies at former President Donald Trump’s disqualification trial in Colorado on November 1, 2023.
Police officers and National Guard troops eventually cleared the rioters from the complex, and the election certification resumed. Then-Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Republican, condemned the “failed insurrection,” a phrase that caught Magliocca’s eye.


“This is just an academic point for now,” Magliocca wrote on a legal blog at 8:12 p.m. “If the President runs again in 2024, though, someone is bound to claim that he cannot serve.”

He’d later testify as an expert witness in multiple January 6 disqualification cases, including against Trump in Colorado and Maine, the only two states to remove him from the ballot.

Laying the groundwork
CREW and another liberal-leaning advocacy group, Free Speech For People, started getting serious in mid-2021 about using the 14th Amendment to stop a Trump comeback.

Free Speech For People launched an effort to educate the public about the little-known provision, which hadn’t been touched since 1919, when Congress used it to ban a socialist lawmaker from office.

Ahead of the 2022 midterms, Free Speech For People filed suits to disqualify several House Republicans over their ties to Capitol riot. They targeted Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, then-Rep. Madison Cawthorn of North Carolina and a trio of Arizonans. (In the Cawthorn case, the group partnered with a retired GOP state Supreme Court justice.)


CNN Poll: Most Americans want verdict on Trump election subversion charges before 2024 vote
“This was their plan all along,” said conservative lawyer James Bopp Jr., who represented Greene and Cawthorn. “I went through the test run of their theory, as they were getting ready for 2024. The litigation in 2022 helped sharpen a bunch of the issues. It revealed some problems with their theories, and also revealed that there were multiple defenses.”

These lawsuits didn’t succeed. But they put the 14th Amendment on the map and gained considerable media attention – Greene’s three-hour testimony was televised live and widely streamed online. And the challengers netted some favorable court rulings along the way. The Georgia judge who declined to disqualify Greene also concluded in his decision that incendiary rhetoric and “marching orders” could constitute engagement in an insurrection.

“That described what Trump did far better than it pertained to Marjorie Taylor Greene,” Free Speech For People’s legal director, Ron Fein, said. “It was an extremely useful precedent.”

A federal appeals court also resoundingly rejected the theory – which Bopp successfully used to shut down the Cawthorn case – that the Amnesty Act of 1872 essentially repealed the insurrectionist ban going forward because it granted relief to “all persons whomsoever.”

“That ruling helped eliminate it as an issue,” Fein said. “It hasn’t been a big issue this year.”


The first winning test case
But there was one winning case that year, which proved for the first time that the 14th Amendment could be applied to January 6 and prohibit a modern-day insurrectionist from office.

The dynamic was unique because it involved someone already convicted of a January 6 offense: Couy Griffin, who was also a county commissioner in New Mexico. CREW sued under state law to disqualify him from office, based on his involvement in the Capitol riot.

“We tried to figure out, what are the best facts, and where is the best law,” Sherman, the CREW lawyer, said in an interview. “That’s what led us to Couy Griffin and New Mexico.”

After a trial, a state judge ruled that January 6 was an insurrection and that Griffin violated the oath he took as a commissioner by engaging in insurrection. Griffin was thus disqualified under Section 3 and was removed from office in September 2022. (He is still appealing.)

“This whole thing started on a small scale, with them coming after me, with the specific goal of bringing it up the to the big stage with Donald Trump,” Griffin said. “I was the test case.”

This was the first time in 103 years that the disqualification clause was enforced.


From Cowboys for Trump
Then-New Mexico County Commissioner Couy Griffin, seen filming a video on January 6, 2021, was convicted for his actions and removed from office based on the 14th Amendment’s “insurrectionist ban.”
A bipartisan turning point with conservative law review article
In December 2022, the House select committee that investigated January 6 released its final report. The bipartisan panel, composed of Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans, recommend Trump’s disqualification from future office under Section 3.

Further, the sweeping 845-page report contained dozens of factual findings that the Trump challengers later used against him at the Denver-based disqualification trial last year, over strenuous objections from Trump’s attorneys. The committee’s extensive fact-finding, with more than 1,000 interviews, offered the challengers reams of compelling new evidence.

Clamoring about the 14th Amendment increased in 2023, as the 2024 presidential cycle got in full swing. But the public conversation was largely led by anti-Trump partisans on the left.

LAS VEGAS, NEVADA - JANUARY 27: Republican presidential candidate and former U.S. President Donald Trump stands on stage during a campaign event at Big League Dreams Las Vegas on January 27, 2024 in Las Vegas, Nevada. Trump is campaigning in Nevada ahead of the state's Republican presidential caucuses on February 8. (Photo by David Becker/Getty Images)
Donald Trump urges Supreme Court to keep him on ballot in final pitch before arguments
That changed in August 2023, when two conservative members of the influential Federalist Society published a law review article endorsing Trump’s disqualification. The article, from law professors William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen, generated wide discussion and was backed by J. Michael Luttig, a retired federal appellate judge who has become one of the top conservative voices condemning Trump for waging a “war” against US democracy.


Magliocca, the constitutional scholar, said the law article was “a pivotal turning point.” It later influenced the Colorado Supreme Court, whose majority cited the paper several times, including to support its finding that courts, and not just Congress, can enforce the ban.

“There were a lot of initial reactions saying, ‘That’s crazy,’” Magliocca said of using the ban against Trump. “But that article gave a big shot in the arm to everyone, and made people sit up, pay attention, and realize that this wasn’t just an academic theory. It’s a real thing.”

Picking the right state
Sherman and his colleagues at CREW knew they were going to challenge Trump’s candidacy before the 2024 election. But one big question was: Where should they do it?

His team conducted a nationwide research survey to gather information on the dizzying array of laws and procedures to contest presidential ballot access, which vary by state. Sherman visited Colorado in March 2023, to compare notes with local attorneys and activist groups.

That trip confirmed that Colorado was “far and away the most attractive option,” he said.

“Colorado has good law that allows voters to challenge a presidential candidate’s eligibility,” Sherman said. “Not every state allows that for the presidential race. And not every state allows challenges for the primaries. That’s why so many of the other cases have failed.”

Once CREW settled on Colorado for its first challenge, the group had to figure out how to prove that Trump “engaged” in the insurrection. This included legal strategy sessions and even social media outreach, including a direct message on Twitter to Winston Pingeon, a former US Capitol Police officer who was injured while fighting the pro-Trump mob on January 6.

From those Twitter messages, Sherman convinced Pingeon to testify at the Colorado trial. The trial judge, Sarah Wallace, wrote in her ruling that his gripping testimony helped her conclude that “there was an insurrection and that the mob was there on Trump’s behalf.”


Abaca Press/Alamy
Donald Sherman, chief counsel at Citizens for Responsibility & Ethics (CREW), appears at a Senate hearing in June 2023.
Trial ends with judge calling Trump an insurrectionist
CREW and a prominent Denver-based law firm filed the Colorado lawsuit in September. The case was brought against Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold, whose office oversees elections. The plaintiffs were a group of Republican and independent voters who were recruited by CREW and disgusted by what they witnessed on January 6.

“I was born four months before FDR was elected,” said Norma Anderson, 91, the lead plaintiff and a Republican whose two-decade career in the Colorado Legislature included stints as majority leader in both chambers. “I’ve lived through a lot of presidents. Some I liked, some I didn’t. But not one of them caused an insurrection, until Donald Trump.”


The case was assigned to Wallace, a rookie judge in her first year on the bench. Even as she rejected Trump’s numerous bids to throw out the case, and a trial became a reality, the lawsuit was still widely portrayed by legal experts and political pundits as a long-shot stunt.

Plus, other stories consumed the headlines. The unprecedented speakership battle in the House of Representatives created daily drama coming out of Washington, DC. And Hamas’ surprise attacks against Israel on October 7 triggered a new full-scale Middle East war.

The unprecedented trial began in the Denver District Court on October 30.

More than a dozen witnesses from both sides testified at trial. Magliocca explained the history of the provision; Pingeon and another police officer relived the violence; two House lawmakers described the Electoral College proceedings and subsequent committee probe; an expert on right-wing extremism linked Trump to militant groups; two January 6 rally organizers defended their event; and a member of the Capitol mob shared his perspective.

Wallace issued a stunning 102-page ruling shortly before Thanksgiving, labeling Trump as an insurrectionist and finding that he “actively primed the anger of his extremist supporters” and “acted with the specific intent to incite political violence and direct it at the Capitol.”

She got tantalizingly close to disqualifying Trump, ruling against him on every key legal question – except one. She said the ban doesn’t apply to the presidency, because of a hiccup in the text that seemingly created a carve-out for the commander in chief. Therefore, even though Trump engaged in insurrection, he must stay on the ballot, Wallace concluded.

‘They hit gold’
The close-but-no-cigar outcome in Colorado came on the heels of other 14th Amendment defeats in Michigan and Minnesota, where Free Speech For People filed major lawsuits.

CREW appealed to the Colorado Supreme Court, whose members were all appointed by Democratic governors, though they originate from a pool of candidates recommended by a bipartisan panel. The high court held oral arguments in December and appeared divided.

The Colorado justices shocked the world on December 19. In a 4-3 decision, the court ruled that Trump was ineligible for office, by affirming Wallace’s findings that Trump engaged in insurrection, and by further ruling that the disqualification clause covers the presidency.

Sherman, the top CREW lawyer, was at home in Washington, DC, when the historic decision dropped, cooking a dinner of spaghetti with meat sauce for his wife and children.


“I hugged my wife, I cried a little, and finished making dinner,” Sherman recalled.

The litigation was filed under a special provision of Colorado’s election code, so it moved with extraordinary breakneck speed: The suit was brought in September, the trial began in October, Wallace issued her ruling in November, and the appeal was decided in December.

But lurking underneath the landmark victory were three dissenting opinions and a guaranteed Trump appeal to the US Supreme Court, with its conservative supermajority. Dissenting Colorado Supreme Court Justice Carlos Samour condemned the expedited trial for severely lacking due process, writing, “what took place here doesn’t resemble anything I’ve seen in a courtroom.”

“They hit gold on the Colorado Supreme Court,” said Bopp, the conservative lawyer, who has won major cases at the US Supreme Court and filed a brief supporting Trump. “But democracy means you let the voters decide. Not judges with expansive views on the law. And there isn’t anything more anti-democratic than removing your opponent from the ballot.”

A trip to the Supreme Court
The Colorado stunner immediately scrambled the 2024 presidential race and set off a frenzy across the country, where Trump critics tried to strip him from more state ballots.

Maine’s secretary of state barred Trump from appearing on the state’s ballot on December 28, vindicating fears from Trump’s legal team that the Colorado decision would trigger a domino effect. But new challenges faltered elsewhere, including in Oregon and Illinois.

Trump appealed the Colorado ruling to the US Supreme Court in early January and oral arguments are set for Thursday.

With the issue front and center, Democrats are split between backing the lawsuit and letting the voters choose Trump’s fate, while Republicans have been more unified in opposition.

GOP Rep. Ken Buck of Colorado, who has denounced Trump’s 2020 election denialism, testified for his defense at the Colorado trial. (One day earlier, Trump celebrated Buck’s retirement by calling him a “Super RINO,” meaning “Republican in name only.”) Buck blasted the decision from his home state.

“It’s embarrassing, and it shows the imbalance on our state Supreme Court,” Buck told CNN. “I disagree with President Trump, factually, on massive voter fraud in 2020 … and I think it would be a terrible mistake to ban someone from the ballot in this country. Let the people decide. They know what Trump did. If they want to elect that person again, let them.”


For proponents of the insurrectionist ban, the case is about enforcing the Constitution, heeding the lessons of the Civil War and protecting democracy. Sherman said CREW has a shortlist of states where he’ll file new challenges if the justices uphold the Colorado ruling.

This journey – from a forgotten clause in the Constitution, to a bloody attack on the US Capitol, to the steps of the Supreme Court – has gone further than almost anyone imagined.

“This has been surreal,” said Magliocca, who never thought his research on the post-Civil War efforts to safeguard democracy and repair a shattered country would come into play today. “After this year, hopefully, nobody will ever be interested in this provision ever again.”

CNN’s Scott Bronstein contributed to this report.

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Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Yes it is illegal. For anybody who gets offended by calling them Illegal Immigrants instead of undocumented aliens......spare me your tears.

. Immigration into the United States should not be easy. It should be a thorough process so that we know the people who are coming here are good people. I guarantee you there have been a lot of people cross the border over the last 3 years that are not coming here because they are looking for opportunity in this country.

It enables people to more easily claim amnesty without any real valid reason or proof of fear of their life by their government if they go back.....which is not much different than it is now. It still does nothing to vet any of these thousands of people who are crossing the border and from what I can see, makes it easier for them to get work Visa's without any vetting.

A few comments on each of the points I left above.

First, crossing to seek asylum (as the majority of the recent influx have been doing) is NOT illegal. Is it taking the painfully slow and often futile route of hoping for a visa via the lottery system? No.

Why should immigration "not be easy?" When my ancestors (and I suspect the majority here the same applies) immigrated the only real requirements where to not be carrying an obvious disease and not be Chinese.

What is the basis of your guarantee that "a lot of people" crossing the border are not coming to make their future (and their children's) better?

From what I have heard reported, the opposite is true in regards to changing asylum claims- that the proposed law would remove economics as a reason for asylum (which now is a high percentage.)

And why not allow those who cross obtain work permits while working through the legal process? That would directly address the claim being made that immigrants are coming for free handouts.


Lots of valid points. Here is what gets me angry about the current situation. If I came to another country and they offered me money, I'd take it. Many immigrants, legal or criminal do just that. They take the handout we all would. There are also many who lie and cheat to get every dollar they can. I don't think this is a Hispanic or immigrant only issue but I am fed up enough with the legal resident fraudsters that I don't want to fund the illegal ones.
Second issue. If I go ride the recently closed federal land around Moab they will ticket or arrest me. If that is a thing for me, the feds should be doing it to everyone who isn't a tax paying citizen. Instead they are transporting criminal aliens over public land and setting them loose with a stipend.

Comment here ties into above. What is the basis for your claim that people are spending lots of money to hire smuggles and/or risking life and limb for a free hand-out?

And again, if we are not wanting tax payers to have to support immigrants waiting to asylum claims to be processed, why not make work permits easier for them to obtain?
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
A few comments on each of the points I left above.

First, crossing to seek asylum (as the majority of the recent influx have been doing) is NOT illegal. Is it taking the painfully slow and often futile route of hoping for a visa via the lottery system? No.

Why should immigration "not be easy?" When my ancestors (and I suspect the majority here the same applies) immigrated the only real requirements where to not be carrying an obvious disease and not be Chinese.

What is the basis of your guarantee that "a lot of people" crossing the border are not coming to make their future (and their children's) better?

From what I have heard reported, the opposite is true in regards to changing asylum claims- that the proposed law would remove economics as a reason for asylum (which now is a high percentage.)

And why not allow those who cross obtain work permits while working through the legal process? That would directly address the claim being made that immigrants are coming for free handouts.
Point 1......I believe to be considered a legal crossing, you have to cross the border at a designated port of entry. Crossing the Rio Grand, sliding under barbed wire, walking through a hole in the wall, etc is not a legal port of entry. Therefore my point stands........it is an illegal crossing regardless of why they are crossing.

Point 2......easy like it was when migrants came through Ellis Island or how they have to come through a designated port of entry......fine. Easy like cross the border illegally and be released. Not fine

Point 3......."a lot of people" is vague, but like I said in my original post, a small percentage of 8 million people is a lot. Are you naive enough to think that there has not been lets say even 1000 people out of the 8 million plus that have crossed in the last 3 years that have not come here to cause us harm? If so, can share some of those rainbows and unicorn piss you are consuming?

Point 4.......I don't know all the details in depth, so I cannot say for sure. Like you gain some of your info from your choice of news etc, which I am sure thinks all this immigration is the next best thing to sliced bread, the sources ......... on the conservative front say otherwise.

Point 5......Once they have been vetted, get them a work permit. But they are pushing for cross the border for your permit when you get here without vetting people.......


But still you never answered my other question.....did your wife come here legally through a port of entry or other process or does the route she came bias your opinion on the matter?
 

johngottfredson

Threat Level Midnight
Location
Alpine
I’m actually pro immigration for real though. People who want their jobs protected are lazy sacs who don’t deserve to vote, let alone dictate policy.

Immigrants have always been the ones doing the heavy lifting to build the country. I have a couple of Honduran guys that do work for me on occasion, work harder than anyone I’ve ever met, more hours, miserable working conditions. And one of them is planning on going back to Honduras when he’s forty and retire - has property there, a house, animals, etc. But I’ve known him for 10 years and he has worked himself to the bone to get there. Whenever he comes over to the house I go out with my kids and we all work with him, because I like them to see what real work looks like.

The last place I worked for took advantage of the H2-B seasonal worker program, one of the best things government does for manual labor industries. Such a great program. We had 100 guys come back year after year, work here legally, then go home happy for the winter. Our company grew from $10M/yr to $40M/yr over five years using that program. One year we didn’t get our application accepted, because A-hole politicians listen to A-hole voters who fear immigrants and so they limited the visa allotments. The whole year we tried temp agencies and a huge hiring push. We were offering $20/hr to start, only requirement was to show up and use a shovel. Couldn’t get anyone to do it. Average white dude lasted 2 days. We figure it cost the company an extra $2M that year to get our projects done.

I believe in controlling borders, but having giant doors. We want the hardest workers, the best and brightest from everywhere. Why not let people come in, and if they hold a job, stay out of legal trouble, and take no government money for 10 years then they get citizenship? Give a million of those visas out every year, and enforce it with an iron fist; any infraction, including sneaking in, and you’re permanently banned.

It’s going to be great when I run things 😎
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
I’m actually pro immigration for real though. People who want their jobs protected are lazy sacs who don’t deserve to vote, let alone dictate policy.

Immigrants have always been the ones doing the heavy lifting to build the country. I have a couple of Honduran guys that do work for me on occasion, work harder than anyone I’ve ever met, more hours, miserable working conditions. And one of them is planning on going back to Honduras when he’s forty and retire - has property there, a house, animals, etc. But I’ve known him for 10 years and he has worked himself to the bone to get there. Whenever he comes over to the house I go out with my kids and we all work with him, because I like them to see what real work looks like.

The last place I worked for took advantage of the H2-B seasonal worker program, one of the best things government does for manual labor industries. Such a great program. We had 100 guys come back year after year, work here legally, then go home happy for the winter. Our company grew from $10M/yr to $40M/yr over five years using that program. One year we didn’t get our application accepted, because A-hole politicians listen to A-hole voters who fear immigrants and so they limited the visa allotments. The whole year we tried temp agencies and a huge hiring push. We were offering $20/hr to start, only requirement was to show up and use a shovel. Couldn’t get anyone to do it. Average white dude lasted 2 days. We figure it cost the company an extra $2M that year to get our projects done.

I believe in controlling borders, but having giant doors. We want the hardest workers, the best and brightest from everywhere. Why not let people come in, and if they hold a job, stay out of legal trouble, and take no government money for 10 years then they get citizenship? Give a million of those visas out every year, and enforce it with an iron fist; any infraction, including sneaking in, and you’re permanently banned.

It’s going to be great when I run things 😎
If we’re talking immigration should be like it was when grand-pappy Jens Gottfredson came over from Denmark in the 1850’s, then I’m pro immigration. He had zero government subsidies or social safety nets, had to provide value to society or literally die. Big fan of that system.
Amen. All examples of proper immigration. and migrant work program. Does it take effort for them to go this route.....absolutely, and they have had some sort of vetting in the process.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
Point 3......."a lot of people" is vague, but like I said in my original post, a small percentage of 8 million people is a lot. Are you naive enough to think that there has not been lets say even 1000 people out of the 8 million plus that have crossed in the last 3 years that have not come here to cause us harm? If so, can share some of those rainbows and unicorn piss you are consuming?



Point 5......Once they have been vetted, get them a work permit. But they are pushing for cross the border for your permit when you get here without vetting people.......


But still you never answered my other question.....did your wife come here legally through a port of entry or other process or does the route she came bias your opinion on the matter?

On your "point 3" as others have said, you take that "few bad apples" mentality and hold it against the majority than "assault weapons" bans and closing all back country travel is completely justifiable as well.

On "point 5" is deliberately didn't answer because it is really none of your damn business, but we met while she was a student at USU.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
Amen. All examples of proper immigration. and migrant work program. Does it take effort for them to go this route.....absolutely, and they have had some sort of vetting in the process.

This issue here isn't just that it takes "effort". The number of visas for legal immigration is far too low for the number who want to come, and where greatly reduced during the Trump years.

People cannot come legally when there really is not an option for them to do so.

That is where the need to true immigration reform comes in. The "big door" as pointed out above is what is needed and the exact opposite of what Republicans have pushed for in recent years. For those seeking a better life, that pushes them to come in through the back door.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
And one source I was able to find on the idea that immigrants, legal and otherwise, are welcomed with large government handouts. If anyone has sources that show the opposite please link to it.

And back to my previous point on work permits, if you don't want any government funds going to support immigrants (right now emergency shelter costs are probably the biggest issue) than make it possible for them to work, get jobs and pay taxes.

 

Mouse

Trying to wheel
Supporting Member
Location
West Haven, UT
There are immigration laws in place because that is what the legislative body voted in; if they are insufficient, then the law making body should take up a measure to change them. Circumventing them, not obeying them, acting contrary to them is not how a country governed by laws should behave. This invites division and general disregard for law. Any part of the government should not be allowed to pick and choose what to follow and should be held accountable for going against current laws.
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
A few comments on each of the points I left above.

First, crossing to seek asylum (as the majority of the recent influx have been doing) is NOT illegal. Is it taking the painfully slow and often futile route of hoping for a visa via the lottery system? No.

Why should immigration "not be easy?" When my ancestors (and I suspect the majority here the same applies) immigrated the only real requirements where to not be carrying an obvious disease and not be Chinese.

What is the basis of your guarantee that "a lot of people" crossing the border are not coming to make their future (and their children's) better?

From what I have heard reported, the opposite is true in regards to changing asylum claims- that the proposed law would remove economics as a reason for asylum (which now is a high percentage.)

And why not allow those who cross obtain work permits while working through the legal process? That would directly address the claim being made that immigrants are coming for free handouts.




Comment here ties into above. What is the basis for your claim that people are spending lots of money to hire smuggles and/or risking life and limb for a free hand-out?

And again, if we are not wanting tax payers to have to support immigrants waiting to asylum claims to be processed, why not make work permits easier for them to obtain?
My basis is that my wife works for the Utah department of human services, she sees it all the time. People file for support for their children not knowing they have to name the father so the state can pursue reimbursement from the father. Then when they find this out, they say the father is in Mexico. That's fine but they do this multiple times for multiple kids. If like you say, they are just seeking a better life, why would they leave the mother and kids here to return to Mexico to work?
Additionally DHS has policy that prohibits employees from documenting when people who outright state that they are commiting fraud, often by stating they are using a stolen social security number. That is not a guess, I've read their policy. Why or how would a state employee be prohibited from report fraud? Things like that piss me off. If you want to be an American, like my ancestors, then be an American. Be held to the same laws I am held to. You thing the state or federal government have a rule prohibiting them from prosecuting me if I admit to stealing social security numbers?
Do you remember around 2007 when two Utah state employees released the names of criminal aliens and the stolen social security numbers they were using? Those two were prosecuted but none of the people on the list were.
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
On your "point 3" as others have said, you take that "few bad apples" mentality and hold it against the majority than "assault weapons" bans and closing all back country travel is completely justifiable as well.

On "point 5" is deliberately didn't answer because it is really none of your damn business, but we met while she was a student at USU.
People who obtain guns illegally should pay a price for doing that. People who enter this country illegally should pay a price for that...........deport them out and give them a chance to come to this country properly. I have never said ban all immigrants. And your are right, it is none of my business, but you seem to believe that these crossings are not breaking any laws. Sure the immigration laws are not great and need a to be changed, but you seem to be of the mindset that the bad laws justify the means to break them. So with that mindset, if I were to think that the law preventing me from owning a suppressor are bad, so I would be justified in buying one on the black market and if caught should not pay a price for doing that?

This issue here isn't just that it takes "effort". The number of visas for legal immigration is far too low for the number who want to come, and where greatly reduced during the Trump years.

People cannot come legally when there really is not an option for them to do so.

That is where the need to true immigration reform comes in. The "big door" as pointed out above is what is needed and the exact opposite of what Republicans have pushed for in recent years. For those seeking a better life, that pushes them to come in through the back door.
To echo my comments above. Because the law is bad, it does not justify the means to break it without consequence. The current administration has chosen to not enforce laws on the books and I think they will pay a pretty high price at the ballot box this year.

And one source I was able to find on the idea that immigrants, legal and otherwise, are welcomed with large government handouts. If anyone has sources that show the opposite please link to it.

And back to my previous point on work permits, if you don't want any government funds going to support immigrants (right now emergency shelter costs are probably the biggest issue) than make it possible for them to work, get jobs and pay taxes.

There is not a lot of direct aid from the .gov, but the .gov is funneling billions of dollars to NGO's to take care of these people. They are getting more assistance from .gov funded NGO's than what our own homeless veterans who have defended our country are getting.

EDIT: On your previous point.......absolutely, lets get them work permits after they have come here legally.
 
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UNSTUCK

But stuck more often.
For those seeking a better life, that pushes them to come in through the back door.
I agree with a lot of what you say, and good on you for standing up for what you believe in when going up against quite a few who differ from your opinion.

You lost me here though. I want a better life. I want my kids to have it better than I do. Quite frankly I don’t have the means or wherewithal to do so. Your logic makes me perfectly justified in robbing banks. I’ll make sure no one gets hurt. No one really looses anything. Thats what insurance is for. I’ll use the money to make me better then I’ll be able to give back to the community/country. I’d likely vote democrat as well. Win-win-win.

I’m so great-full all Americans don’t think this way.
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
And one source I was able to find on the idea that immigrants, legal and otherwise, are welcomed with large government handouts. If anyone has sources that show the opposite please link to it.

And back to my previous point on work permits, if you don't want any government funds going to support immigrants (right now emergency shelter costs are probably the biggest issue) than make it possible for them to work, get jobs and pay taxes.

Utah provides many benefits to undocumented immigrants and their children. This is from the DWS website. Again it specifically calls out that they wont report your criminal activity.

On your "point 3" as others have said, you take that "few bad apples" mentality and hold it against the majority than "assault weapons" bans and closing all back country travel is completely justifiable as well.
Do you support extradition of every single criminal alien in the US prison system for crimes they have committed in the US that are not related to immigration? If not why? Why should we house thousands of people who came here illegally and then committed crimes after they were here.

This is a statement from the Utah County Sherriff on how criminal migrants are treated better than US Citizens.

The Utah Sheriffs’ Association explained the problem further in its own statement:

Throughout the years the Utah sheriffs who have held contracts with I.C.E. have been subjected to an unending list of federal “strings” that are attached. These include more than 700 pages of regulations that are not based upon constitutional rights or legal standards based on case law. Many of these absurd standards give special treatment and privileges to I.C.E. detainees that are far above and beyond what our own incarcerated citizens receive. The sheriffs who have tried to work with I.C.E. have been subjected to audits from liberal Washington DC based special interest groups. They have been threatened with lawsuits bringing undue liability upon the sheriffs and ultimately the tax paying citizens of Utah’s counties. I.C.E. policy and practice have made it simply impossible for Utah’s sheriffs to house I.C.E. detainees
 
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