Political So now what

[02SE]

 

[anderson750]

If it is real, he's pretty much admitted to treasonous behavior and activities... which is probably why he's wearing lipstick.

The efforts …….that have been exposed…..that our government operates covertly for political reasons is astounding. Put on your And imagine what they have probably done that we don’t know about. Our three letter agencies have more in common with KGB than we would probably like.

 

[glockman]

I think there is a pretty easy litmus test for illegal immigration.

If you truly believe criminal aliens are just good people here to better their life then you should have zero issues with passing the following.
1. No child born in the US to illegall immigrants get automatic citizenship.
2. Zero federal aid going to anny criminal aliens.
Last, any criminal alien who commits a felons while in the US gets life in prison.

If we passed these things, I'd have zero issues with immigration.

 

[Gravy]

I was really worried about immigrants coming and taking my job.

But then I realized I'm a stay-at-home dad.

So the ball is kind of in my court on that one.

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[Houndoc]

"The results are similar to our other work on illegal immigration and crime in Texas. In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per 100,000 illegal immigrants, 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422 per 100,000 native‐born Americans"

https://www.cato.org/blog/new-research-illegal-immigration-crime-0

The mythical tie between immigration and crime

Research by Stanford’s Ran Abramitzky and co-authors uncovers the most extensive evidence to date that immigrants are less likely to be imprisoned than U.S.-born individuals.

siepr.stanford.edu

 

[glockman]

"The results are similar to our other work on illegal immigration and crime in Texas. In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per 100,000 illegal immigrants, 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422 per 100,000 native‐born Americans"

https://www.cato.org/blog/new-research-illegal-immigration-crime-0

The mythical tie between immigration and crime

Research by Stanford’s Ran Abramitzky and co-authors uncovers the most extensive evidence to date that immigrants are less likely to be imprisoned than U.S.-born individuals.

siepr.stanford.edu

The rate may indeed be low, but if your child was murdered or severely harmed by a person here illegally, would you feel as though your government did it's job protecting you and your child as citizens?

Would you support life imprisonment for criminal aliens who commit a felony while in the US Illegally?
There should be no middle ground there if you truly believe the majority are here to simply better themselves.

 

[glockman]

To step away from the Federal and immigration issues. SB83 and HB97 are up for vote in our state legislature this session.
SB83 requires "Secure storage" Of firearms. This same law has been used in other states to prosecute victims. Several examples of people having their homes broken into and their possessions stolen, only to be prosecuted for their stolen guns. This is immoral and has to be stopped. My locked home or car is "secure storage". If it is not, bureaucrats will determine how much time and effort you have to put forth in order to exercise your 2A rights. I'll go out on a limb and say it will be used against law abiding citizens here, just as it has been in other states.


HB97 Requires a 5 day waiting period for firearms purchases. This has been shown to have a negative affect only on law abiding citizens and has cost the lives of numerous domestic violence victims. There is zero evidence that it has stopped any violent crime.

 

[Cody]

I think there is a pretty easy litmus test for illegal immigration.

If you truly believe criminal aliens are just good people here to better their life then you should have zero issues with passing the following.
1. No child born in the US to illegall immigrants get automatic citizenship.

I would say the vast majority of illegal immigrants are good people trying to better their lives. I don't know how they compile the data on a somewhat aloof population, but I've never seen data that suggest the rate of criminal behavior is greater amongst illegal immigrants, unless their crime is simply being here....illegally. Ha ha, so I guess if you take that one out, I have yet to see anything that suggests they are more likely to commit crimes than other people in this country.

I'd probably go along with eliminating the anchor baby thing, but I think it has to come along with a massive overhaul of the system because there should never be a situation where parents get deported and children stay. It may very well be better for the children in the long term in many cases, but I don't think kids should be taken from their parents.

2. Zero federal aid going to anny criminal aliens.

I think there should be federal sponsored immigration/work programs for immigrants that allow them to be within our system and work towards becoming a contributing member of our society. I don't think it's fair for a family of 16 to continue to get tax breaks and subsidized public education, while a DINK household pays a substantially higher tax rate while not using those programs at all (I'd actually take the philosophical side that they too benefit from a more educated society, but the point is a point). Fair isn't always equal, and equal isn't always fair.

Last, any criminal alien who commits a felons while in the US gets life in prison.

If we passed these things, I'd have zero issues with immigration.

So you want the US to pay for them to stay in prison for life? I thought the issue was that illegal immigrants are a drain on our government programs?

 

[Houndoc]

The rate may indeed be low, but if your child was murdered or severely harmed by a person here illegally, would you feel as though your government did it's job protecting you and your child as citizens?

Would you support life imprisonment for criminal aliens who commit a felony while in the US Illegally?
There should be no middle ground there if you truly believe the majority are here to simply better themselves.

If my child or family is a victim of violent crime, the immigration status of the offender is not likely to be my biggest concern.

And life imprisonment for all felony convictions is absurd, both from a "cruel and unusual punishment " Constitutional standard and a ridiculous drain on the budget. It is also an odd suggestion from those with a general distrust of government power.

 

[Cody]

I still think back to my dear, sweet, bat-shit-stupid mother in law (she's actually a step-mom, not bio). She was living in St. George and I would specifically avoid any political talk with that side of the family due to obvious differences in perspective. I made a very casual Trump reference once and she started gleefully singing a song that went "Trump Trump Trump, Trumpity Trump Trump-Trump" followed by an explanation about how she loved that man as much as her husband and how she would sleep with him if she had the chance (as Vonnegut would say, so it goes). She would post online about the border wall and how Mexican immigrants are single handedly destroying our society (the idea that many of those border immigrants were not, in fact, Mexican didn't matter). Fast forward a few months and we were visiting again and she mentioned how sad they were that their favorite Mexican restaurant had closed because the family that owned it had been deported and what a shame that was, how they wanted to start a Go Fund Me to help them, and that it really impacted their 12 year old daughter because she was best friends with that family's daughter in school. In no way was she able to identify the irony of being simultaneously outraged by the absolutist concept of Mexican immigrants, and her outrage over her "friends", the Mexican immigrants, that were just deported. She was just incensed over both, and that reconciled just fine in her brain.

These are real people folks, that really vote lol.

 

[glockman]

I would say the vast majority of illegal immigrants are good people trying to better their lives. I don't know how they compile the data on a somewhat aloof population, but I've never seen data that suggest the rate of criminal behavior is greater amongst illegal immigrants, unless their crime is simply being here....illegally. Ha ha, so I guess if you take that one out, I have yet to see anything that suggests they are more likely to commit crimes than other people in this country.

I'd probably go along with eliminating the anchor baby thing, but I think it has to come along with a massive overhaul of the system because there should never be a situation where parents get deported and children stay. It may very well be better for the children in the long term in many cases, but I don't think kids should be taken from their parents.

I think there should be federal sponsored immigration/work programs for immigrants that allow them to be within our system and work towards becoming a contributing member of our society. I don't think it's fair for a family of 16 to continue to get tax breaks and subsidized public education, while a DINK household pays a substantially higher tax rate while not using those programs at all (I'd actually take the philosophical side that they too benefit from a more educated society, but the point is a point). Fair isn't always equal, and equal isn't always fair.


So you want the US to pay for them to stay in prison for life? I thought the issue was that illegal immigrants are a drain on our government programs?

I'm not saying they commit more or less crime than citizens, just that 100% of the crime they do commit is crime that should have been stopped by prohibiting them being here illegally.
I'd totally support more federal funding to get people here on visa's to work. Or any other way to improve the system vs just funnel money to illegally bringing people in.

I hate the prison cost but it would act as a deterrent.

 

[Cody]

I'm not saying they commit more or less crime than citizens, just that 100% of the crime they do commit is crime that should have been stopped by prohibiting them being here illegally.
I'd totally support more federal funding to get people here on visa's to work. Or any other way to improve the system vs just funnel money to illegally bringing people in.

I hate the prison cost but it would act as a deterrent.

Are they criminals because they are here, or is it just by being here they are criminals? Again, I feel like this is the same argument with gun control and gender neutral bathrooms. Criminals, by nature, are just going to do the thing. A criminal isn't going to say "shit, owning an AR15 is illegal, so I better not go shoot up that school". An immigrant that is also a criminal isn't going to be deterred from coming here and committing a crime just because the act of coming here is in itself, a crime.

I think we can all agree that Federally we need some major changes to our immigration system. I think our country has a glaring labor gap, and there are immigrants willing to come here to fill that role. There are just so many obstacles in the way of that reform though, not the least of which is a general ethnocentric fear, a fear of real change, and a political system that is currently gauging it's successes by the failures of the opposite party.

 

[Jesser04]

I still think back to my dear, sweet, bat-shit-stupid mother in law (she's actually a step-mom, not bio). She was living in St. George and I would specifically avoid any political talk with that side of the family due to obvious differences in perspective. I made a very casual Trump reference once and she started gleefully singing a song that went "Trump Trump Trump, Trumpity Trump Trump-Trump" followed by an explanation about how she loved that man as much as her husband and how she would sleep with him if she had the chance (as Vonnegut would say, so it goes). She would post online about the border wall and how Mexican immigrants are single handedly destroying our society (the idea that many of those border immigrants were not, in fact, Mexican didn't matter). Fast forward a few months and we were visiting again and she mentioned how sad they were that their favorite Mexican restaurant had closed because the family that owned it had been deported and what a shame that was, how they wanted to start a Go Fund Me to help them, and that it really impacted their 12 year old daughter because she was best friends with that family's daughter in school. In no way was she able to identify the irony of being simultaneously outraged by the absolutist concept of Mexican immigrants, and her outrage over her "friends", the Mexican immigrants, that were just deported. She was just incensed over both, and that reconciled just fine in her brain.

These are real people folks, that really vote lol.

Wait you married your step sister?

 

[Cody]

Wait you married your step sister?

No, I married my step mom.

 

[DAA]

Billy Pilgrim and Linda Ellerbee for the win.

- DAA

 

[Houndoc]

, just that 100% of the crime they do commit is crime that should have been stopped by prohibiting them being here illegally.

I really struggle reconciling in my brain your positions on immigration v gun control.

Back to your earlier question about how I would feel if a family member was the victim of a serious violent crime, statistically that crime is more likely to involve a gun the government failed to keep out of the hands of someone who should not have it than an immigrant the government failed to keep out of the country.

In both cases no law will 100% stop those with criminal intent and the vast majority of both guns and immigrants ( illegal crossings included) are of no public threat.

Yet you defend guns and condemn immigration with equal force.

 

[Houndoc]

I hate the prison cost but it would act as a deterrent.

Are you trying to detere crime or immigration?

If crime, why not make mandatory life sentences for all felonies the rule for citizens as well?

 

[J Kimmel]

No, I married my step mom.

Like those movies

 

[UNSTUCK]

Every illegal has willfully committed a 1st degree crime. That is, they thought it through ahead of time, planned it, and carried it out.

To my knowledge I have never committed any crime.

Yet you think illegals are less likely to commit crimes in the future than me? Like one and done?

 

[glockman]

I really struggle reconciling in my brain your positions on immigration v gun control.

Back to your earlier question about how I would feel if a family member was the victim of a serious violent crime, statistically that crime is more likely to involve a gun the government failed to keep out of the hands of someone who should not have it than an immigrant the government failed to keep out of the country.

In both cases no law will 100% stop those with criminal intent and the vast majority of both guns and immigrants ( illegal crossings included) are of no public threat.

Yet you defend guns and condemn immigration with equal force.

I am not condemning immigration and never have. I'm in favor of legal immigration and work closely with people from all over the world every day.

The very clear difference between gun control and illegal immigration is that Americans citizens have a constitutional right to possess firearms. Illegal immigrants have zero right to be here. I am baffled how those two things exist in the same space in your mind.

To clear up my earlier point, Im referring to criminal aliens who enter illegally, then while here commit an addiction felony. I'd even settle for forceable felonies, not property or drug offenses. Again I'm baffled that anyone would take issue with that unless they are just in favor of no borders. The fact that many or most illegal immigrants are kind peaceful people has no bearing on harsh punishment for those who aren't. Arrest those who are here doing evil things and throw the book at them. It's like not supporting dui laws because most people who drive drunk don't kill anyone.